Discussion
RobM77 said:
Firstly, not every fact can be found online.
The instances where a fact which one might reasonably expect a salesman to know off the top of his head cannot be found relatively simply online must be vanishingly small.RobM77 said:
When buying secondhand cars for example, it can be very difficult to find out the answers to certain basic questions, like my example of whether a car has roof bars made for it or not. You can find out the interesting things like 0-60 and lap times for past cars, but not many (or any?) people catalogue mundane details like that, and manufacturers' websites don't normally have archives.
Yeah, accepted, not everything is online. However, I refer you to three points. A) Is it reasonable for a salesman at a dealership (who may well have worked there, say 3 months) to know whether a car sold new some 2.5 years before he got the job (possibly while he was still at school) to know something like that? I'd say not.
B) The post which I quoted was on specifically about new cars, not used.
C) Googling the phrase 'roof bars [BMW E/F number]' works absolutely fine for me and spits out an answer (actually 90,000 answers) in 0.58 seconds, allegedly.
RobM77 said:
Secondly, not everyone thinks of all their questions in advance and researches them - salespeople should, in my opinion, know about their products they're selling so they can answer queries that arise during test drives or when looking at a car.
We're back to reasonable-ness. Does this come with leather seats? Bluetooth phone? CD player? Yeah, that sort of thing they should know. Can the 20" wheels from the X5 fit this? Does it get better MPG than an equivalent C-Class? I'd say you're starting to push the boundaries of reasonable right to their limits.
Is the glass in the sunroof ethically sourced from countries which do not produce Palm oil? Is the weight of the gearbox oil factored into the overall weight of the vehicle? Could this car tow a Regal 195 4-berth caravan containing a circus elephant, two dozen helium gas canisters and a Bedlington Terrier called Clive? Probably not going to get away with being grumpy about these.
RobM77 said:
If they don't know the answers, they shouldn't lie, they should find out for you.
Here we are in total agreement. RobM77 said:
Salespeople in Apples stores seem to manage this just fine, and tales of woe such as mine a few pages ago don't happen at Apple Stores
Steve Jobs called, says your new phone's in the post and thanks for the party political broadcast. It seems Trustpilot disagrees: https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.apple.co.uk
RobM77 said:
Also, in the example above for someone test driving a 5 series it's not at all unreasonable to expect a salesperson to have also tried an E Class (or a Jag XF) and to be able to discuss the relative advantages and disadvantages, or at least to hold a conversation on the subject.
I, for one, don't give a single shiny s
te what a BMW salesman, who I don't know from Adam, thinks about anything. There are plenty of BMW salesmen who would be delighted to receive a box-set of Mrs Brown's Boys, or listen to the music of Coldplay, or eat 'food' from McDonald's. You'd value their opinion? Good luck to you.If I want to know how a 3-series compares with it's Jaguar/Mercedes/Audi equivalents, I'll jolly well go and drive them all and make my choice based on what I know, not what some prick in a shiny suit and cheap shoes tells me.
Further to this, of course, is the fact that it's this bloke's job to sell you a BMW. It's how he pays his mortgage and feeds his wife and child. He's hardly likely to offer a neutral opinion. "Oh no mate, you don't want a 320d M-Sport, they're f
king ste, go to the Merc garage down the road and get yourself a nice C220 AMG-line." He'd make no money and get sacked inside a month. In and of itself, is the car he's selling a good thing? That's all he's going to be able to tell you. This is like when we get people on here who say they're selling their car and get people turn up telling them that there's one down the road with twice the options and half the miles for half the price. Well f
k off and buy that one then, comes the answer. The only thing the salesman at BMW is going to be able and should be expected to comment upon is the car he is selling. It is common ground between us that if he cannot do that about his product he is either useless or you are asking the wrong questions. To suggest that he should know and in some cases advocate alternatives goes well beyond reasonable. If you want a neutral view, buy a copy of Which? and be done with.RobM77 said:
How would you feel if a salesman of uPVC windows didn't know anything about wooden windows and the pros and cons?
See above.RobM77 said:
ferrariF50lover said:
This place needs to decide on a message and stick to it.
Eh? This is a discussion forum comprising of hundreds of car fans RobM77 said:
with a range of preferences and opinions.
Again, I'm not convinced. Have a look at any thread about leasing or, well, anything. You only need to see the amount of traction the same threads over and over and over get. A recent one which went to 20+ pages was the "anyone like cars but not credit" thread, which, for the billionth time this month, raised the issue of leasing a car you "can't afford". Car fans would say, go ahead and lease if that will get you into the car you want to be in. It's not what I'd do, but you clearly love the Golf R so much that you're willing to make that sacrifice. Instead we get a load of people who have absolutely no interest in cars but instead taking pleasure in telling everyone how astute they are either by suggesting buying the thing outright (after all, £35k's only pocket change when you're on 'six figs') or instead buying a 14 year old Renault with three wheels and no back doors for £2.50 and putting the rest in Premium Bonds. The circle jerk which ensues when anyone mentions an Audi being driven poorly or that they saw a diesel broken down on the M4 is beyond embarassing and again bears out that this place attracts a certain type.
The prevailing "wisdom" on here is that anything German is purchased only by those seeking to make a statement to their neighbours and other road users about how wealthy and powerful they are (oh, the irony). Except when it suits, such as in threads as this one, where only the most discerning, knowledgable connesuiers of fine motoring are smart and savvy enough to set foot within 50 yards of anything wearing the blue and white quarters.
RobM77 said:
I've had some bad experiences at BMW dealerships over the years and, like others, wanted to chat about them with others on a discussion forum. That's ok isn't it?
I'm not following your logic here. You seem to want to have a discussion, but only if people agree with you (I have disagreed and you've taken umbrage, many have agreed and you're fine with them, your problem, therefore, must be with my dissent). Yet you've just argued that "this is a discussion forum with a range of different views and opinions". Which is it?Christ, I do bloody prattle on, don't I. Sorry about that.
TL;DR - I think it's only reasonable to expect salesmen to have an adequate not excessive product knowledge and PH is full of smug t
ts who know less than my Nan about cars and motoring.
You're one of us 
Fox- said:
I'm sure you did. You literally walked out because somebody who isn't involved with the servicing of the car didn't know what a CSL was. You were not there to buy a car, you only needed the salesman to signpost you to the service desk but no! You'll service your car somewhere completely different because that one salesman didn't fawn all over your CSL.
Don't you just love internet anecdotes?
It didn't take long for one to turn up did it?Don't you just love internet anecdotes?
Nope, he didn't fawn all over my CSL for one very simple reason....I hadn't bought one at the time,nothing to fawn over then really. Now I have one I don't expect it to be fawned over, it's a car, nothing more. Sorry to burst your balloon.
In reply to ButterFace and FN2TypeR, very valid points! Initially, and I'm happy to accept that in hindsight I was mistaken, the general service there was slack to say the least. I've now found out who to speak to if anything is needed and the service is exemplary.
As stated, the head tech guy there has a few M cars himself and is a fanatic.
However, on the point of the lack of product knowledge. Quite a few years back I thought I'd try my hand at car sales and landed a sales job at a LR dealer. For approx 2 months I wasn't allowed near a potential customer except as company for one of the trained guys. I had to attend several LR product training courses that included older models also as we would also be selling older vehicles. Only when I had sat and passed various tests on product knowledge was I allowed to speak to potential customers as a sales rep.
I assumed. obviously mistakenly, that BMW would have been the same.
Edited by moktabe on Friday 28th October 23:32
Monkeylegend said:
Over 2 million new car registrations so far this year, car salesmen must be doing something right.
Apparently a huge proportion are pre registered though. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37795068
My local Volkswagen dealership has had a change of regime and people from a Manchester Renault dealership that's part of the same company have been brought in. It used to be a fairly normal sort of place to do business, now it's smarm and that irritating presentation with a cover over the car.
Where I got my Audi from they've had the same salespeople there for years and they get promoted within the business. As most dealerships have a very high turnover of staff I think that says a lot about the way the company operates, and as they weren't selling photocopiers last week they do have knowledge of the products.
My local BMW dealership is a local family firm and not a huge enterprise and the salesperson I spoke to there was a nice older lady.
Blakewater said:
Apparently a huge proportion are pre registered though.
What most people don't realise is that we still have to sell those pre-registered cars as well as our new targets 
As if at the end of the quarter our bosses say 'you didn't hit your targets guys, but don't worry we're going to pre-reg a load of stuff' and we all cheer. Pre-reg is a double edged sword, the company/manufacturer gets a registration. The sales guy gets another used car to sell which will undoubtedly be in exchange for one that would have been sold a new car.
That BBC article makes it sound like the devils handiwork but if anything the main winner is the customer, basically a brand new car for a whole lot less than an actual 'new' (yours isn't the first name on the logbook) car.
Butter Face said:
What most people don't realise is that we still have to sell those pre-registered cars as well as our new targets
As if at the end of the quarter our bosses say 'you didn't hit your targets guys, but don't worry we're going to pre-reg a load of stuff' and we all cheer. Pre-reg is a double edged sword, the company/manufacturer gets a registration. The sales guy gets another used car to sell which will undoubtedly be in exchange for one that would have been sold a new car.
That BBC article makes it sound like the devils handiwork but if anything the main winner is the customer, basically a brand new car for a whole lot less than an actual 'new' (yours isn't the first name on the logbook) car.
I bought a pre reg Porsche 911 in 2010 , I remember the discussion with the salesman trying to convince me it was a new car I was buying , he wouldn't back down on the fact my name would be second in the log book and technically it was a second hand car .As if at the end of the quarter our bosses say 'you didn't hit your targets guys, but don't worry we're going to pre-reg a load of stuff' and we all cheer. Pre-reg is a double edged sword, the company/manufacturer gets a registration. The sales guy gets another used car to sell which will undoubtedly be in exchange for one that would have been sold a new car.
That BBC article makes it sound like the devils handiwork but if anything the main winner is the customer, basically a brand new car for a whole lot less than an actual 'new' (yours isn't the first name on the logbook) car.
We went round in circles for a few minutes before I convinced him I was right .
I did buy it about ten minutes later.
iSore said:
RobM77 said:
Also, in the example above for someone test driving a 5 series it's not at all unreasonable to expect a salesperson to have also tried an E Class (or a Jag XF) and to be able to discuss the relative advantages and disadvantages, or at least to hold a conversation on the subject.
Why would a BMW salesman have driven the competitors to every car BMW make? RobM77 said:
A lot of this can be described by the classic interview question of "Sell me this pen", at which point the interviewer hands the salesman a pen. The correct answer is a question like "how long have you been in the market for a pen?", rather than a meaningless babble about the pen in question...Most interesting series of posts reminding me of my late dads advice to sell yourself before talking about a product, always conduct sales business in the form of a conversation, convivial, not patronising & show a genuine interest in the buyers needs & align your presentation to meet those needs.
It was flattering that having established my credentials in terms of honesty & reliability most of my customers would leave it to me to decided what products suited them best.
I have met and delt with good, bad and indifferent car sales people. In my view, most could not be classed as sales people, they are oder takers who act as the messenger between the customer and Sales Manager, during the negotiation.
From what I have seen, dealerships experience a huge turnover in Car Sales staff. The good ones appear to move up the ladder/move to a specialist/change industries with most of the average/poor ones moving from dealership to dealership.
My main frustration with a number of dealership staff that I have engaged with over the years is their inability to listen which, is a key skill that any sales person should have.
Like others have mentioned, I don't expect the Dealer sales people to have significant product knowledge. No matter what I am buying, I do my own research which, usually puts me in a much stronger position to negotiate and buy right, first time.
From what I have seen, dealerships experience a huge turnover in Car Sales staff. The good ones appear to move up the ladder/move to a specialist/change industries with most of the average/poor ones moving from dealership to dealership.
My main frustration with a number of dealership staff that I have engaged with over the years is their inability to listen which, is a key skill that any sales person should have.
Like others have mentioned, I don't expect the Dealer sales people to have significant product knowledge. No matter what I am buying, I do my own research which, usually puts me in a much stronger position to negotiate and buy right, first time.
Butter Face said:
Blakewater said:
Apparently a huge proportion are pre registered though.
What most people don't realise is that we still have to sell those pre-registered cars as well as our new targets As if at the end of the quarter our bosses say 'you didn't hit your targets guys, but don't worry we're going to pre-reg a load of stuff' and we all cheer. Pre-reg is a double edged sword, the company/manufacturer gets a registration. The sales guy gets another used car to sell which will undoubtedly be in exchange for one that would have been sold a new car.
That BBC article makes it sound like the devils handiwork but if anything the main winner is the customer, basically a brand new car for a whole lot less than an actual 'new' (yours isn't the first name on the logbook) car.
Who chooses the specifications of the cars that end up in the showrooms because I've seen some weird specs that even the salesmen have had to admit they've had a hard time selling to people. For example, every Volkswagen dealership seems to have been given a baby blue top of the range Volkswagen Up with a white interior on the launch of the facelifted model. Is it always the manufacturer that chooses the spec or the dealer or is it different if it's for a new model launch?
Blakewater said:
Butter Face said:
Blakewater said:
Apparently a huge proportion are pre registered though.
What most people don't realise is that we still have to sell those pre-registered cars as well as our new targets As if at the end of the quarter our bosses say 'you didn't hit your targets guys, but don't worry we're going to pre-reg a load of stuff' and we all cheer. Pre-reg is a double edged sword, the company/manufacturer gets a registration. The sales guy gets another used car to sell which will undoubtedly be in exchange for one that would have been sold a new car.
That BBC article makes it sound like the devils handiwork but if anything the main winner is the customer, basically a brand new car for a whole lot less than an actual 'new' (yours isn't the first name on the logbook) car.
Who chooses the specifications of the cars that end up in the showrooms because I've seen some weird specs that even the salesmen have had to admit they've had a hard time selling to people. For example, every Volkswagen dealership seems to have been given a baby blue top of the range Volkswagen Up with a white interior on the launch of the facelifted model. Is it always the manufacturer that chooses the spec or the dealer or is it different if it's for a new model launch?
This 90 day thing doesn't happen in most dealerships I know (which are franchised) which I suppose must be different to the manufacturer owned dealerships.
In September I registered a van to us and sold it to a customer the same day as a used vehicle, no problems at all.
As for showroom cars, it's a mix of the dealer choosing and manufacturer specifying. They tell us what models and specs and we choose colours and options. Sometimes (normally with new launch vehicles) we get auto allocated a spec/colour for showroom and demo.
Issi said:
iSore said:
RobM77 said:
Also, in the example above for someone test driving a 5 series it's not at all unreasonable to expect a salesperson to have also tried an E Class (or a Jag XF) and to be able to discuss the relative advantages and disadvantages, or at least to hold a conversation on the subject.
Why would a BMW salesman have driven the competitors to every car BMW make? Butter Face said:
Lots of manufacturers give supported deals for pre-reg stuff but you won't get the same deposit contributions etc.
This 90 day thing doesn't happen in most dealerships I know (which are franchised) which I suppose must be different to the manufacturer owned dealerships.
In September I registered a van to us and sold it to a customer the same day as a used vehicle, no problems at all.
As for showroom cars, it's a mix of the dealer choosing and manufacturer specifying. They tell us what models and specs and we choose colours and options. Sometimes (normally with new launch vehicles) we get auto allocated a spec/colour for showroom and demo.
When I went to the Volkswagen dealer in Bolton they were selling pre registered cars but insisted on storing them away for three months in their yard. The last couple of times I've bought a new car it's been because of a reliability issue with my current one, so waiting three months hasn't been an option. This 90 day thing doesn't happen in most dealerships I know (which are franchised) which I suppose must be different to the manufacturer owned dealerships.
In September I registered a van to us and sold it to a customer the same day as a used vehicle, no problems at all.
As for showroom cars, it's a mix of the dealer choosing and manufacturer specifying. They tell us what models and specs and we choose colours and options. Sometimes (normally with new launch vehicles) we get auto allocated a spec/colour for showroom and demo.
Years ago I went for a job interview at a Vauxhall dealership and the salesman asked me what I would do if I approached a customer who was browsing and he told me to f
k off. I'm not sure what the answer to that was supposed to be, but I didn't get the job.RobM77 said:
I think that's a bit harsh; these guys are selling £30k, £40k or even £50k+ cars. I wouldn't dream of selling anything unless I understood and knew about the product and the market. It's quite common in the industry to have comparative days where you can try a range of cars in competing sectors - a friend of mine used to get invited on them.
But then, its a double edged sword. I recall a training session 10 years ago at Mercedes World featuring the new CL500. As opposed to the old W215. the comparison cars were an Aston DBS, BMW 650 and a Bentley GT.Mercedes undertook these pre launch training days with pretty much everyone in MB UK (sales) so we could SELL the magnificence of the new CL.
Aston was 'meh' BMW was 'ok' Mercedes CL 500 was 'nice car'.
The problem was the Bentley GT.
Almost to a man, on being asked about it, after driving it, response was. ' why are we even bothering?'
Many trainers, and many senior bods at MB UK sent many emails to many dealers about their disrespectful staff and something about not understanding MB.
The reality? Whilst the GT technically may have not been a 'better' car, it was magnificent. Us 'honest salesman' when being asked 'Bentley or CL' By customers, invariably gave the same response.
CL sales pretty much died after that.
Blakewater said:
Butter Face said:
Lots of manufacturers give supported deals for pre-reg stuff but you won't get the same deposit contributions etc.
This 90 day thing doesn't happen in most dealerships I know (which are franchised) which I suppose must be different to the manufacturer owned dealerships.
In September I registered a van to us and sold it to a customer the same day as a used vehicle, no problems at all.
As for showroom cars, it's a mix of the dealer choosing and manufacturer specifying. They tell us what models and specs and we choose colours and options. Sometimes (normally with new launch vehicles) we get auto allocated a spec/colour for showroom and demo.
When I went to the Volkswagen dealer in Bolton they were selling pre registered cars but insisted on storing them away for three months in their yard. The last couple of times I've bought a new car it's been because of a reliability issue with my current one, so waiting three months hasn't been an option. This 90 day thing doesn't happen in most dealerships I know (which are franchised) which I suppose must be different to the manufacturer owned dealerships.
In September I registered a van to us and sold it to a customer the same day as a used vehicle, no problems at all.
As for showroom cars, it's a mix of the dealer choosing and manufacturer specifying. They tell us what models and specs and we choose colours and options. Sometimes (normally with new launch vehicles) we get auto allocated a spec/colour for showroom and demo.
Years ago I went for a job interview at a Vauxhall dealership and the salesman asked me what I would do if I approached a customer who was browsing and he told me to f
k off. I'm not sure what the answer to that was supposed to be, but I didn't get the job.Commercials can be registered to the dealership/manufacturer and sold straightaway, for some reason commercials aren't tied to the 90 day rule that cars are.
The purpose of the 90 day rule is to try and stop pre registerig.
We have had customers in where we are competing with the internet, we have looked at the t's @ c's of said Internet company (can't remember the name but it wasn't one we had heard of) and hidden in there is something along the lines of; "the car is pre registered and you will not receive the V5c for 90 days", this can cause issues with insurance.
Vauxhall use to offer a scheme call "Try and buy", it was their take on getting round pre registering; a car would be sold to someone, it was pre registered to the dealer so therefore very cheap, the customer would take the car, however the dealer would hold on to the V5c and re-register it to the purchaser after 90 days; the purchaser was "trying" the car and "buying" it after 90 days.
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