Diesel scrappage scheme
Discussion
Devil2575 said:
yonex said:
Diesels are only good for trotting up and down the motorways. Otherwise hopeless.
Rubbish.They shouldn't be in city centres, they're nowhere near as fun on single carriageway roads as an equivalent petrol, and really their role.should be 4x4 offroaders and tow vehicles.
I do 80 miles dual/motorway and even I'm tempted to make my next car a petrol.
Hungrymc said:
I've had an X-Trail as a hire car this week. I have described it as having a very truck like feel as opposed to the car like SUVs, and having an engine from the 90s. Added to what felt like a very short ratio transmission, I think it's a terrible example of diesel powertrain and bears no resemblance to most of the volvos, audis, fords etc that I have as hire cars.
Edited to add.... that's not meant to be a criticism of the Nissan, I think they are aiming it at a more rugged, utilitarian end of the market.
Agreed. Is it a Renault engine in them, it's obviously too small for the job. Very surprised at this in a modern car, although I think it's representative of other 4 cylinder diesels I have driven. Edited to add.... that's not meant to be a criticism of the Nissan, I think they are aiming it at a more rugged, utilitarian end of the market.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 2nd December 06:34
Devil2575 said:
No, electric isn't about to take off any time soon. It's not like manufacturers are gearing up for it, is it?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/...
No, it really isn't. Thanks for agreeing with me.https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/...
yonex said:
Agreed. Is it a Renault engine in them, it's obviously too small for the job. Very surprised at this in a modern car, although I think it's representative of other 4 cylinder diesels I have driven.
Just curious, but how many gears did it have?With diesels I personally prefer longer ratio's, although I admit these 8 speed auto's do put up impressive numbers. But as a for instance, I have a 4 speed manual in my 88 with 2.5 Tdi. It drives wonderfully and is loads of fun. Loads of power at almost any rpm and never ever feels short on revs.
But I do agree/admit that when I've driven 6 speed manual 2.7 TDV6 Disco 3's. It's just too many ratio's... you are always, always changing gear in the thing. I wonder if this is the biggest issue.
For example, in my 88 I can roll up to a round about in 3rd, accelerate off the round about, change into 4th and run at 60-70mph no probs. So if you have a string of round abouts to do, it's just one down change and one up change.
A TDV6 would probably still require 3rd for the round about, but then 4th, 5th and 6th for cruising speed. So to approach and go over a round about in one of these is 6 gear changes vs 2 for the old timer. I know which one I prefer.
300bhp/ton said:
Just curious, but how many gears did it have?
With diesels I personally prefer longer ratio's, although I admit these 8 speed auto's do put up impressive numbers. But as a for instance, I have a 4 speed manual in my 88 with 2.5 Tdi. It drives wonderfully and is loads of fun. Loads of power at almost any rpm and never ever feels short on revs.
But I do agree/admit that when I've driven 6 speed manual 2.7 TDV6 Disco 3's. It's just too many ratio's... you are always, always changing gear in the thing. I wonder if this is the biggest issue.
For example, in my 88 I can roll up to a round about in 3rd, accelerate off the round about, change into 4th and run at 60-70mph no probs. So if you have a string of round abouts to do, it's just one down change and one up change.
A TDV6 would probably still require 3rd for the round about, but then 4th, 5th and 6th for cruising speed. So to approach and go over a round about in one of these is 6 gear changes vs 2 for the old timer. I know which one I prefer.
It was a 6 speed manual, but the killer was the lack of torque outside of about 1500 usable rpm. Below this it just bogged down and above it was flat. It meant you needed to drive it in a certain way, which I guess is the point of a big bus like that but it didn't make for an relaxing drive. Highly boosted, small capacity 4 cylinder diesels are the devils creation.With diesels I personally prefer longer ratio's, although I admit these 8 speed auto's do put up impressive numbers. But as a for instance, I have a 4 speed manual in my 88 with 2.5 Tdi. It drives wonderfully and is loads of fun. Loads of power at almost any rpm and never ever feels short on revs.
But I do agree/admit that when I've driven 6 speed manual 2.7 TDV6 Disco 3's. It's just too many ratio's... you are always, always changing gear in the thing. I wonder if this is the biggest issue.
For example, in my 88 I can roll up to a round about in 3rd, accelerate off the round about, change into 4th and run at 60-70mph no probs. So if you have a string of round abouts to do, it's just one down change and one up change.
A TDV6 would probably still require 3rd for the round about, but then 4th, 5th and 6th for cruising speed. So to approach and go over a round about in one of these is 6 gear changes vs 2 for the old timer. I know which one I prefer.
culpz said:
Devil2575 said:
No, electric isn't about to take off any time soon. It's not like manufacturers are gearing up for it, is it?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/...
No, it really isn't. Thanks for agreeing with me.https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/...
That's annoying. My girlfriend is currently choosing her company car, and due to a need to tow 2000KGs, it basically comes down to a choice between the new X-Trail (1.6DCi 130PS) or a VW Tiguan (2.0D 150PS). Both make the same torque figure, so I was erring on the side of the X-Trail simply because the spec looked better than the VW (and I've been pleased with our current X-Trail which it will be replacing). Mind you, she doesn't really care about driving dynamics anyway.
Evanivitch said:
they're nowhere near as fun on single carriageway roads as an equivalent petrol
Which matters in a car that's designed to be fun. So a 2 litre diesel in an MX5 is going to miss the point somewhat. However most cars are not designed with fun in mind and for those diesel is better, emissions issues aside.Devil2575 said:
I wasn't agreeing with you. Neiher do some big European car manufacturers. But then what do they know, it's only their business...
It was sarcasm on sarcasm. I presumed that was implied but clearly not.To clear this up, the current state of EV's really isn't at such technological advancement and efficiency to be rolled out to the general public right now and/or be a direct replacement for internal combustion engines.
I honestly can't see that being far from the truth.
Edited by culpz on Friday 2nd December 11:28
Devil2575 said:
Evanivitch said:
they're nowhere near as fun on single carriageway roads as an equivalent petrol
Which matters in a car that's designed to be fun. So a 2 litre diesel in an MX5 is going to miss the point somewhat. However most cars are not designed with fun in mind and for those diesel is better, emissions issues aside.You have to laugh at the morons who make these decisions. If any one of them had any common sense, a viable alternative to the internal combustion engine could be developed. People try, but to be honest, I think they have been pushing against the grain for a long time. Technology is coming, but it has a way to go yet.
Don't believe for one second that any of these decisions will be made with emissions in mind. It's all about the tax. Get people into a certain bracket of vehicle, then hit it with higher tax.
One of the most laughable schemes of late has been the way VED has been calculated. Reducing this for certain vehicles has meant certain people have flocked to these. All of a sudden, the revenue people generated has dipped. It isn't road tax. However, I still don't understand how certain vehicles could be exempt when they all use the same roads and add to the congestion.
Diesel has been laughable for a while too. I never understood why favourable tax rates were given to these type of vehicles. No fossil fuel based vehicle is completely clean, but diesels (especially buses etc.) are monumentally filthy. It just shows how bad it's gone for diesels when you have to add a compound to the exhaust emissions to bring them down. It's yet another, serviceable, consumable item for the owner to spend more money on.
I really cannot understand why a decent alternative to the internal combustion engine isn't widespread at the moment. We've had the know how to build something different for ages (hell, we put people on the moon years ago). I firmly believe that advances in vehicle technology have been scuppered by governments, and the fuel companies, because an alternative would mean thinking about a new way of taxation and wouldn't be good for a petrol seller's business.
I know electric vehicles still need the electricity generating somewhere. However, this is another area that has been scuppered by morons in power thinking about money, and making knee-jerk reactions based on a tsunami in Japan.
Change is slowly coming, but it's bloomin slow.
Don't believe for one second that any of these decisions will be made with emissions in mind. It's all about the tax. Get people into a certain bracket of vehicle, then hit it with higher tax.
One of the most laughable schemes of late has been the way VED has been calculated. Reducing this for certain vehicles has meant certain people have flocked to these. All of a sudden, the revenue people generated has dipped. It isn't road tax. However, I still don't understand how certain vehicles could be exempt when they all use the same roads and add to the congestion.
Diesel has been laughable for a while too. I never understood why favourable tax rates were given to these type of vehicles. No fossil fuel based vehicle is completely clean, but diesels (especially buses etc.) are monumentally filthy. It just shows how bad it's gone for diesels when you have to add a compound to the exhaust emissions to bring them down. It's yet another, serviceable, consumable item for the owner to spend more money on.
I really cannot understand why a decent alternative to the internal combustion engine isn't widespread at the moment. We've had the know how to build something different for ages (hell, we put people on the moon years ago). I firmly believe that advances in vehicle technology have been scuppered by governments, and the fuel companies, because an alternative would mean thinking about a new way of taxation and wouldn't be good for a petrol seller's business.
I know electric vehicles still need the electricity generating somewhere. However, this is another area that has been scuppered by morons in power thinking about money, and making knee-jerk reactions based on a tsunami in Japan.
Change is slowly coming, but it's bloomin slow.
funkyrobot said:
Diesel has been laughable for a while too. I never understood why favourable tax rates were given to these type of vehicles. No fossil fuel based vehicle is completely clean, but diesels (especially buses etc.) are monumentally filthy. It just shows how bad it's gone for diesels when you have to add a compound to the exhaust emissions to bring them down. It's yet another, serviceable, consumable item for the owner to spend more money on.
Erm, a compound has had to be added to petrol since about 1925 to get it to work well as a fuel. It used to be a form lead (TEL), which poisoned the global populace fairly massively but is now benzene, a highly carcinogenic substance which we take in each time we fill up. I don't agree that diesel is monumentally filthy, well, I can agree but only in the context that all vehicles are monumentally filthy as far as the planet is concerned.
heebeegeetee said:
funkyrobot said:
Diesel has been laughable for a while too. I never understood why favourable tax rates were given to these type of vehicles. No fossil fuel based vehicle is completely clean, but diesels (especially buses etc.) are monumentally filthy. It just shows how bad it's gone for diesels when you have to add a compound to the exhaust emissions to bring them down. It's yet another, serviceable, consumable item for the owner to spend more money on.
Erm, a compound has had to be added to petrol since about 1925 to get it to work well as a fuel. It used to be a form lead (TEL), which poisoned the global populace fairly massively but is now benzene, a highly carcinogenic substance which we take in each time we fill up. I don't agree that diesel is monumentally filthy, well, I can agree but only in the context that all vehicles are monumentally filthy as far as the planet is concerned.
I'm referring to AdBlue.
And yes, no internal combustion engine is clean.
Edited to add - so benzene gives petrol it's nice smell? Can't be good for people working in petrol stations.
Edited by funkyrobot on Friday 2nd December 12:28
yonex said:
It was a 6 speed manual, but the killer was the lack of torque outside of about 1500 usable rpm. Below this it just bogged down and above it was flat. It meant you needed to drive it in a certain way, which I guess is the point of a big bus like that but it didn't make for an relaxing drive. Highly boosted, small capacity 4 cylinder diesels are the devils creation.
I've always felt turbo-diesels work best in autos, and I believe the Nissan X-Trail, to which you're referring, has a CVT auto - so the issue of being in the right rev band goes away completely.HoHoHo said:
Coming from a V8 TT F10 M5 I really like my new car........
A 3.0L Tri-turbo 390hp, 740nm Torque diesel with loads of room for the children and dog.
Never going to be as much fun as my old M5 but it's not a bad car at all and no one will convince me otherwise.
What car is that?A 3.0L Tri-turbo 390hp, 740nm Torque diesel with loads of room for the children and dog.
Never going to be as much fun as my old M5 but it's not a bad car at all and no one will convince me otherwise.
My dad has the X5 M50D. It's quite a monster, even though he drives it very steadily.
Evanivitch said:
Devil2575 said:
Evanivitch said:
they're nowhere near as fun on single carriageway roads as an equivalent petrol
Which matters in a car that's designed to be fun. So a 2 litre diesel in an MX5 is going to miss the point somewhat. However most cars are not designed with fun in mind and for those diesel is better, emissions issues aside.I don't think that is actually correct at all. My diesel consistently gets better MPG than the equivalent petrol model in any driving situation I have ever used it. The worst MPG I have had from my Focus TDCI is better than the highest MPG I got from my wifes old 1.8i petrol Focus and my old 2 litre focus.
You need to find some data to back your claim up because I think it's factually incorrect.
funkyrobot said:
HoHoHo said:
Coming from a V8 TT F10 M5 I really like my new car........
A 3.0L Tri-turbo 390hp, 740nm Torque diesel with loads of room for the children and dog.
Never going to be as much fun as my old M5 but it's not a bad car at all and no one will convince me otherwise.
What car is that?A 3.0L Tri-turbo 390hp, 740nm Torque diesel with loads of room for the children and dog.
Never going to be as much fun as my old M5 but it's not a bad car at all and no one will convince me otherwise.
My dad has the X5 M50D. It's quite a monster, even though he drives it very steadily.
Believe me, after an M5 the 50D is no monster but it's a great all round utility vehicle
Sheepshanks said:
I've always felt turbo-diesels work best in autos, and I believe the Nissan X-Trail, to which you're referring, has a CVT auto - so the issue of being in the right rev band goes away completely.
I agree, I think generally dervs and manual gearboxes are horrid. Don't know about the current ones but the previous gen of Xtrail could be specified with manual, cvt or 6 speed autos which is what mine has.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff