Diesel scrappage scheme

[FiF]

otolith said:

300bhp/ton said:

I actually posted a link to alternative technology earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Braz...

Not as a finite solution, but as a completely different direction with it's own challenges and possibilities. Just as EV's and batteries are not a finite solution either.

Remember the world is a far bigger place than just the United Kingdom, or even Europe.

There's a detailed examination of Brazilian and US ethanol production here;

http://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/7/...

TLDR: "The use of ethanol as a substitute for gasoline proved to be neither a sustainable nor an environmentally friendly option, considering ecological footprint values, and both net energy and CO2 offset considerations seemed relatively unimportant compared to the ecological footprint. As revealed by the ecological footprint approach, the direct and indirect environmental impacts of growing, harvesting, and converting biomass to ethanol far exceed any value in developing this alternative energy resource on a large scale."

I think the next generation of biofuels may be more efficient, but they've been promised for a while. If we can develop biofuels with a smaller footprint, which don't push up food prices or require tropical deforestation, they may be an option from a CO2 reduction point of view, but we aren't going to be able to burn them in ICEs because of the same local air quality issues affecting diesels. We might be able to run fuel cell vehicles on them - my gut feeling there is that you are probably going to end up paying a large premium to have an electric car which can be refilled quickly but needs to be taken to a filling station rather than one which can be refilled slowly anywhere it's parked. I think that if the infrastructure for electric charging gets there first, that would probably be a non-starter.

Just as an observation, having regularly driven, as in daily driver, both Focus and Golf vehicles running on E85, 85%ethanol/15% petrol mix, well the fuel consumption was atrocious and if required performance was better, but at an even bigger impact on consumption. Blasting long distances at :cough: highish :cough: speeds during the ash cloud / no flights malarkey it seemed as if one could see the fuel gauge physically dropping. Spectacular difference on normal unleaded petrol. Sorry for off topic there.

[MarshPhantom]

otolith said:

300bhp/ton said:

And were do you think people park for work? And do you think it's a) possible or practical to have a charging point located there, b) enough of them for all the cars, c) how will pay to put these charing points in place.

a) In many cases, yes. Look at the system used in Norway.

Great idea, use the system they use in a country with a population of 5 million, whose most populated city has 600,000 people.

[FiF]

MarshPhantom said:

otolith said:

300bhp/ton said:

And were do you think people park for work? And do you think it's a) possible or practical to have a charging point located there, b) enough of them for all the cars, c) how will pay to put these charing points in place.

a) In many cases, yes. Look at the system used in Norway.

Great idea, use the system they use in a country with a population of 5 million, whose most populated city has 600,000 people.

Not to mention availability of hydroelectric power ~ 99% last time I checked.

[otolith]

MarshPhantom said:

otolith said:

300bhp/ton said:

And were do you think people park for work? And do you think it's a) possible or practical to have a charging point located there, b) enough of them for all the cars, c) how will pay to put these charing points in place.

a) In many cases, yes. Look at the system used in Norway.

Great idea, use the system they use in a country with a population of 5 million, whose most populated city has 600,000 people.

Sorry, I'm not seeing what any of that has to do with whether this system could be used here. Do you think they also need special lampposts, bollards or parking meters because they have a smaller population?

[otolith]

FiF said:

MarshPhantom said:

otolith said:

300bhp/ton said:

And were do you think people park for work? And do you think it's a) possible or practical to have a charging point located there, b) enough of them for all the cars, c) how will pay to put these charing points in place.

a) In many cases, yes. Look at the system used in Norway.

Great idea, use the system they use in a country with a population of 5 million, whose most populated city has 600,000 people.

Not to mention availability of hydroelectric power ~ 99% last time I checked.

But that's sod all to do with the practicality of installing a charging point.

[culpz]

Guvernator said:

I'm not going over the same stuff, just asking what you or anyone else thinks the alternative is given the massive move by the industry towards EV. No one has answered that very simple question yet. Yes the world is not just Britain but given the fact that nearly every major player in America, Europe and Asia is investing in EV tech and either have brought out or are due to bring out an EV car in the next year or two, I think it's safe to assume we know where the majority of the car industry thinks it's headed.

And no pointing to a random link about bio fuel being used in Brazil isn't an answer. Where is the bio fuel car I can buy right now, today that is being produced in the thousands by a major manufacture? The answer, there isn't one but I can count at least 10 EV cars available to buy today off the top of my head.

How can you or anyone else be so sure that EV's will be the future? They're already here and have been for years. So why are there not many of them on the roads? I don't want a response to say there hasn't been a need for them until recently because that simply isn't true, otherwise they wouldn't exist at all would they?

I also think it's wrong to assume that alot of the general public do minor mileage that would be suited perfectly to an EV. Again, refer back to the above, why are there only a fraction of them being used/sold today? The answer is that their use is limited and the fact that they're just not as a good as a petrol or diesel.

How do you not know that a sudden achievement and discovery within biofuels/hydrogen doesn't crop up? Why is that so hard to swallow? Stranger things have happened and if EV's come to a dead end then what other option do we turn to? There's too much assumption being made here to see one side of the story and not the other.

EV's may well take off but i think they need a huge leap in progress all of sudden to become and answer to our problems. To me, this seems as unlikely as you disbelieving in the evolution of other alternatives. Horses for courses all all that.

[FiF]

otolith said:

FiF said:

MarshPhantom said:

otolith said:

300bhp/ton said:

And were do you think people park for work? And do you think it's a) possible or practical to have a charging point located there, b) enough of them for all the cars, c) how will pay to put these charing points in place.

a) In many cases, yes. Look at the system used in Norway.

Great idea, use the system they use in a country with a population of 5 million, whose most populated city has 600,000 people.

Not to mention availability of hydroelectric power ~ 99% last time I checked.

But that's sod all to do with the practicality of installing a charging point.

But it's not got sod all to do with the overall equation regarding national choice of fuel source, just one facet.

[300bhp/ton]

FiF said:

Just as an observation, having regularly driven, as in daily driver, both Focus and Golf vehicles running on E85, 85%ethanol/15% petrol mix, well the fuel consumption was atrocious and if required performance was better, but at an even bigger impact on consumption. Blasting long distances at :cough: highish :cough: speeds during the ash cloud / no flights malarkey it seemed as if one could see the fuel gauge physically dropping. Spectacular difference on normal unleaded petrol. Sorry for off topic there.

Yes, I don't think E85 or sugarcane fuel is the exact answer. But it demonstrates it's possible to use an alternative fuel to a natural oil based one. Meaning there is possibility or growing or producing other fuel types. Ones that could potentially be more viable and even more sustainable. E85 is also being used in engines not built or designed for it. I'm sure with the correct incentive, dedicated engines could be produced that are more efficient on such fuel or new a yet undeveloped fuels.

I don't know what these fuel might look like, but it's well known diesel engines will run on vegetable oil, so there is probably some offerings and ideas around this.

[300bhp/ton]

otolith said:

MarshPhantom said:

otolith said:

300bhp/ton said:

And were do you think people park for work? And do you think it's a) possible or practical to have a charging point located there, b) enough of them for all the cars, c) how will pay to put these charing points in place.

a) In many cases, yes. Look at the system used in Norway.

Great idea, use the system they use in a country with a population of 5 million, whose most populated city has 600,000 people.

Sorry, I'm not seeing what any of that has to do with whether this system could be used here. Do you think they also need special lampposts, bollards or parking meters because they have a smaller population?

I commend your thinking, and I'm sure in some remote parts of the UK you get places as quiet as that with roads that wide. But lets add a dose of reality into the mix there are no places in the SE, Midlands, Central UK or in any major city that resemble that. Most of our road network within towns and cities is ancient, quite literally. Meaning narrow and usually very very busy.

And it's rather important to note all of the vehicles in your photo are not exactly the typical common vehicles you see in the UK.

[300bhp/ton]

otolith said:

FiF said:

MarshPhantom said:

otolith said:

300bhp/ton said:

And were do you think people park for work? And do you think it's a) possible or practical to have a charging point located there, b) enough of them for all the cars, c) how will pay to put these charing points in place.

a) In many cases, yes. Look at the system used in Norway.

Great idea, use the system they use in a country with a population of 5 million, whose most populated city has 600,000 people.

Not to mention availability of hydroelectric power ~ 99% last time I checked.

But that's sod all to do with the practicality of installing a charging point.

And being picky, but for an important point. What sort of amp ratings are those chargers points rated too? The cabling looks very small and the cars also tiny. If you want to rapid or fast charge a large battery, you need substantially more heavy duty equipment. And large amp draws will require significantly different backing infrastructure for the charging points. Such as, if the local electricity supply can't actually cater for high amp charing points. Or is only able to run 2 out 10 charging points at a time.


For instance, look at the size of cable to fast charge the small battery of the Leaf.

If you had a battery twice the size and wanted to charged it twice as quickly, you'd probably need a cable half as big or double again to safely carry the current.




And while I know you see no dangers or risks with electric vehicles. (I think you are wrong on this). I do believe there are risks. The Tesla S 'supercharger' stations are 480v and must pump out a load of amps.

Anything else high voltage is normally behind locked gates and fences and requires special permission to enter. But these charging points are put in places where people could accidentally drive into them and knock them over. Left out in the elements and have cables that will likely degrade and perish in time.

In an office we are obsessed with checking 12v laptop supplies are safe and have to PAT tested. Charing points pose a much greater risk.

[300bhp/ton]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I think there is a difference between a couple of low power charge points and catering for an entire community. As a for instance, if you lived somewhere and street parked. But only 20-40% of the street parking had charing points, but when you get home most night all are already taken and in use. What are you meant to do?

Installing enough charging points for everyone is likely unviable. Parking meters are quite different, no or low electricity demands and actually make money. A charing point, unless it's charing way over the odds for the electric is unlikely to be a source of income. Plus a lot more costly to install.

I showed some figures earlier, to even cater for half the vehicles on the roads it was a matter hundreds of Billions of pounds. To install charging points. And with little or no monetary ROI, that is a rather big sum of money to talk about.


And parking is not the same everywhere. As an example, but there are many other examples. Cars park part on road and part on the pavement, by design, as the road is too narrow to park full on the road. There is not enough room for a parking meter or a charging point and still have a usable footpath.

[otolith]

culpz said:

I also think it's wrong to assume that alot of the general public do minor mileage that would be suited perfectly to an EV. Again, refer back to the above, why are there only a fraction of them being used/sold today? The answer is that their use is limited and the fact that they're just not as a good as a petrol or diesel.

Because they are more expensive to buy and less capable than a comparable ICE car. Norway has fiddled with the economics, made them cheaper to buy and run than ICE and now has 20% of new car buyers choosing pure EVs. Unless there is an incentive, people aren't going to look at them and ask "do I really care about these range and charging issues". I think Tesla is changing the game and making EVs desirable in their own right, but the real push will come as ICE use is increasingly penalised and restricted.

The thing is that current EVs meet most people's *needs*, if not their *wants*.

[300bhp/ton]

otolith said:

The thing is that current EVs meet most people's *needs*, if not their *wants*.

I think this is the thing that bugs me the most. A completely false and wrong statement with nothing to back it up or supporting.


The simple fact is, it isn't true. Most of the population are not new car buyers in the first instance. So on this base level a 'new' expensive vehicle simply cannot suit or fulfil most peoples needs. As it is beyond the reach of a great many. And that issue has nothing specific to do with it being EV or not.


And claiming it suits the people that use the item the least is not really the answer either and is just playing with the figures. Let's assume that 90% claim of everyone does less than 10 miles a day. It's wrong, but even if right, that would mean 90% of the people are not the issue, as they are doing almost nothing to contribute to what are the perceived issues.

And addressing this 90% will have minimal or no impact on the actual issues at hand.

[FiF]

Off at a tangent, sorry, but whilst looking for something else, Google threw this up.

http://www.boliden.com/Press/News/2015/Boliden-par...



Yes that is a heavy truck picking up overhead power via a pantograph arrangement.

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

You are taking your personal situation though and extrapolating on the assumption that the majority of people are the same as you.

Of course, what else can I base it on? So I drive the car to work, it's at the middle ground of its range, it can make it home but no more. I get a call to go to the school, I need to pick up my daughter and take her to the doctors, she's sick. It's in the opposite direction to home, will the doctors have a charging point. No. It's just not suitable for unplanned journeys. That's what I am saying.

DonkeyApple said:

Recycling? Batteries? Well it's only currently cost ineffective due to cells being separate. The process is cheap it's the collection cost that's the problem. Massive blocks of thousands of cells changes that somewhat.

The process is cheap, really? Would you like me to show you a sample of dead shredded batteries, polyethylene, separators, polypropylene, paper, trace of lead content. Possible it is, cheap to recycle the product it is not.

DonkeyApple said:

Incidentals? Well they are incidentals not terminal issues. Nothing more debt and spending can't deal with. And the same people who like legislating for things like EVs are the same people who like stting on the poor, instigating massive development programs and pissing away billions of GBP of money they don't actually have.

So we invest billions from where exactly, we cannot fix potholes currently so it will be interesting to see where you think this money would come from?

[TooMany2cvs]

FiF said:

Off at a tangent, sorry, but whilst looking for something else, Google threw this up.

http://www.boliden.com/Press/News/2015/Boliden-par...



Yes that is a heavy truck picking up overhead power via a pantograph arrangement.

I dread to think not only of the installation costs of the cable network above even a large percentage of the trunk road network, but what happens during roadworks - and how long before the first half-wit electrocutes themselves on a motorway bridge.

And what happens about oversize loads?

[culpz]

otolith said:

Because they are more expensive to buy and less capable than a comparable ICE car.

Yes exactly. That's my whole point. Why are we assuming that's going to change at any point soon? EV technology and batteries are expensive and always have been. Someone's got to pay for them and their upkeep. Will the incentive be that the Government(s) contributes towards this? I think not.

[bodhi]

To be honest, I would say that if the only way a technology can catch on is to penalise people who use the other alternative, then it's not a particularly great technology in the first place.

But then I suppose it is quite a tough sell. Please replace your perfectly serviceable car which will do over 500 miles after 5 minutes in a petrol station, with this newer model, which will do only 200 miles after 3 hours charge. Great! Where do I sign up?

I do have to laugh at some of the tortured statistics being used here too. There are currently more places to fill up an EV than a real car! Well no, there might be more charging points than petrol stations, but how many pumps does the average petrol station have? And how many people can refuel in an hour compared to a charge point?

Really can't see the ICE going anywhere soon I'm afraid, even the "big guns" are aiming for about 30% of their production to be electric by 2025, which means the other 70% will still need powerplants.

[culpz]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

Using very general terms is pointless.

Car's in general are still expensive and have continued to become so over the years. Why is electric technology still expensive and why/how would that change all of a sudden?

[Guvernator]

So trying to bring this vaguely back on topic, what do people see as the future for diesel ICE then? It seems the powers that be have developed a real hate for it all of a sudden as the devils fuel (I always knew it was ) and talk of banning diesels from most cities within the next 5 years is rife, can this really work? Due to them doing basically incentivising diesel for the last decade, there are millions of old diesel cars on the road, what's going to happen to all of those.

On a personal note the missus is dead set on an SUV...which are 95% diesel so I'm guessing now isn't a great time to be considering one.