Diesel scrappage scheme

[heebeegeetee]

Meanwhile, Londoners live the longest.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4026038/...

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/longevity-ri...

https://www.willistowerswatson.com/en-GB/press/201...

[otolith]

heebeegeetee said:

Meanwhile, Londoners live the longest.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4026038/...

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/longevity-ri...

https://www.willistowerswatson.com/en-GB/press/201...

The key word in those reports being "ring".



What you are seeing there is the effect of affluence.

[Guvernator]

otolith said:

They will be devalued. People who need to drive into cities will sell their diesel cars. People who don't will snap them up. Some people who currently drive their diesel into a city will keep the car but use another mode for those journeys.

I've just bought a soot-chucker myself, but when I go to London I get the train, and in any case I intend to keep it until it's worth bugger all anyway.

London has nearly a million diesel cars. The current congestion zone only really covers a small area of the centre of London at peak times so doesn't really effect the majority of those as most people travel to central London via train\tube.

However the proposals I've seen for the new ultra low emissions zone covers nearly the whole of London which means more than just not being able to get to central London by car, it would make pretty much all those cars useless for anyone who lives inside the M25. How many of those million could afford to sell their current diesel car at a huge loss and buy something else not forgetting the replacement will probably have to be newer\more expensive to be Euro 6 compliant.

The other problem is hardly anyone seems aware of the issue, most of the people I've spoken to don't even know this is being proposed.

[otolith]

Oh yeah, they're not going to like it, and it's going to cost them, although they are not currently proposing a complete ban on diesels, they're talking Euro 4 for petrols and Euro 6 for diesels in this yellow area;



I would have more sympathy for them if they hadn't recently elected the bloke who's going to do it, and if they didn't have public transport alternatives that the rest of the country would kill for.

[Guvernator]

otolith said:

Oh yeah, they're not going to like it, and it's going to cost them, although they are not currently proposing a complete ban on diesels, they're talking Euro 4 for petrols and Euro 6 for diesels in this yellow area;



I would have more sympathy for them if they hadn't recently elected the bloke who's going to do it, and if they didn't have public transport alternatives that the rest of the country would kill for.

You do realise that little yellow area probably covers about 80% of the population of London. I live in zone 6 at the end of a tube line so almost as far out on the edge of London as you can get and I still get caught. Euro 6 means cars not more than 2-3 years old so not an inconsiderable expense

Yes public transport is decent but not great for all journeys, try getting on a crowded London bus with a weeks worth of shopping. Plus I take the tube\bus far too often for work as it is, sod using public transport when I absolutely don't have to. It might be better than lots of other places in the UK but its still dire and if at all possible, I choose not to. Wait you aren't one of those people that are going to suggest that people in cities shouldn't have cars at all are you?

As for Khan, I agree what a self aggrandising bell-end, I really have no idea who voted him in.

[heebeegeetee]

otolith said:

The key word in those reports being "ring".
.

I wonder how much of it is a ring though? Using your other map, I doubt that the 'ring' extends from Kensington and Chelsea into Lambeth or Tower Hamlets.

otolith said:

Are we getting mixed messages as well? Apparently we've never loved longer https://www.gov.uk/government/news/life-expectancy...

and we're reaching our natural limit. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/human-li...

I agree with you though, affluence has the biggest effect imo even when we're breathing the same air.

And "Sitting Is The New Smoking."
https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/atoms/...

[DonkeyApple]

otolith said:

Oh yeah, they're not going to like it, and it's going to cost them, although they are not currently proposing a complete ban on diesels, they're talking Euro 4 for petrols and Euro 6 for diesels in this yellow area;



I would have more sympathy for them if they hadn't recently elected the bloke who's going to do it, and if they didn't have public transport alternatives that the rest of the country would kill for.

The proposed change is one of the reasons that I've decided to bail from London. Although I've lived here all my life I have in the last few years become bored of the lack of civility and ability of too many inhabitants and visitors to function as civilised humans and endless traffic jams of people rushing to go and buy tat they have no needbof and no money to pay for. I have no interest or need to own a modern/new car and the thought of having to pay a fee to leave Town on a Friday and another to return on Monday suddenly made me realise that it wouldn't be worth paying to come back so I think I'm going to go and live in the middle of nowhere where I can drive the cars and shoot things.

[otolith]

Guvernator said:

Wait you aren't one of those people that are going to suggest that people in cities shouldn't have cars at all are you?

I would not want to own a car in London or other large city.

I would not choose to live somewhere where I would not want to own a car.



By UK standards, car ownership in London overall is very low, and decreases towards the centre.

http://www.gbmaps.info/car-maps/average-cars-per-h...

A little over half of households and declining back in 2011/12.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-ma...

I think that explains to a large extent the willingness of the population to tolerate car-hating politicians.

[Guvernator]

otolith said:

I would not want to own a car in London or other large city.

I would not choose to live somewhere where I would not want to own a car.



By UK standards, car ownership in London overall is very low, and decreases towards the centre.

http://www.gbmaps.info/car-maps/average-cars-per-h...

A little over half of households and declining back in 2011/12.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-ma...

I think that explains to a large extent the willingness of the population to tolerate car-hating politicians.

There may be less cars per household but that still leaves 2.5m cars registered in London last year, probably the biggest concentration of cars in the UK so it's obvious people in cities still use cars.

Yes I sometimes meet those odd people who try to convince me that owning a car in a city is a waste of time, I even know one or two people who don't even have a driving licence. I just smile at them and think about how much easier owning a car makes my families lives. Incidentally not too long ago I spotted one of those non-licence owning friends standing at a bus stop freezing in the cold and rain with his young daughter looking miserable. I offered them a lift to which the daughter seemed very grateful. I'm guessing her dad's smugness at not needing a car wasn't keeping her warm enough.

Could I do without a car in the city? Possibly. Would I want to? Not on your life. At least there is light at the end of the tunnel, the rise of the EV should mean that those city folk who still like to use cars, get to enjoy the freedom and ease of use of personal transport without poisoning everybody for a little bit longer.

[Devil2575]

Guvernator said:

There may be less cars per household but that still leaves 2.5m cars registered in London last year, probably the biggest concentration of cars in the UK so it's obvious people in cities still use cars.

Yes I sometimes meet those odd people who try to convince me that owning a car in a city is a waste of time, I even know one or two people who don't even have a driving licence. I just smile at them and think about how much easier owning a car makes my families lives. Incidentally not too long ago I spotted one of those non-licence owning friends standing at a bus stop freezing in the cold and rain with his young daughter looking miserable. I offered them a lift to which the daughter seemed very grateful. I'm guessing her dad's smugness at not needing a car wasn't keeping her warm enough.

Could I do without a car in the city? Possibly. Would I want to? Not on your life. At least there is light at the end of the tunnel, the rise of the EV should mean that those city folk who still like to use cars, get to enjoy the freedom and ease of use of personal transport without poisoning everybody for a little bit longer.

My brother in law lives in central London and doesn't own a car. If he needs a car he hires one but he manages just fine without most of the time. Mind you, he is single, very well off, works long hours and when he has time off normally leaves the country via Heathrow or Gatwick.

[bodhi]

Guvernator said:

There may be less cars per household but that still leaves 2.5m cars registered in London last year, probably the biggest concentration of cars in the UK so it's obvious people in cities still use cars.

Yes I sometimes meet those odd people who try to convince me that owning a car in a city is a waste of time, I even know one or two people who don't even have a driving licence. I just smile at them and think about how much easier owning a car makes my families lives. Incidentally not too long ago I spotted one of those non-licence owning friends standing at a bus stop freezing in the cold and rain with his young daughter looking miserable. I offered them a lift to which the daughter seemed very grateful. I'm guessing her dad's smugness at not needing a car wasn't keeping her warm enough.

Could I do without a car in the city? Possibly. Would I want to? Not on your life. At least there is light at the end of the tunnel, the rise of the EV should mean that those city folk who still like to use cars, get to enjoy the freedom and ease of use of personal transport without poisoning everybody for a little bit longer.

That makes EV's sound awesome for city folk - quick question though. Given those of us out in the stick already have an option that works very well, is not fazed by large distances, and take 5 minutes to refill, even when empty, can we keep that and leave the EV's to London folk?

[Fox-]

Guvernator said:

Euro 6 means cars not more than 2-3 years old so not an inconsiderable expense

It doesn't take effect until 2020 by which time most sub 7 year old cars will be Euro 6 compliant.

[DonkeyApple]

Devil2575 said:

My brother in law lives in central London and doesn't own a car. If he needs a car he hires one but he manages just fine without most of the time. Mind you, he is single, very well off, works long hours and when he has time off normally leaves the country via Heathrow or Gatwick.

That's really the key. If you earn enough then firstly you tend to live only a few minutes walk from a key tube station and your commute is only ever to one of three core hubs, the City, Wharf or West End. And your social movements do not include places where there are not tube stations or are places black cabs won't go. When you escape London it's usually by plane. Overland trains are easy though as they all seem to go to London. And if you live in a nice area then you'll have Streetcar for local use and a rental service that will deliver to your door.

The true reality is that if you live inside zone 2 you genuinely don't need a car, it is a luxury. Especially if you are white collar.

[Trabi601]

bodhi said:

That makes EV's sound awesome for city folk - quick question though. Given those of us out in the stick already have an option that works very well, is not fazed by large distances, and take 5 minutes to refill, even when empty, can we keep that and leave the EV's to London folk?

The irony being that the people whose lifestyle suits and EV park 2 streets away with no electricity and those who have adequate space to park and charge an EV wouldn't get to the nearest town and back on a single charge!

[otolith]

I just detest urban driving, it's not a political stance.

[culpz]

Some people just drive simply because they enjoy it. I live in Manchester and i'm just around the corner from the city centre. In all fairness, i don't drive into there all to often but i only ever really do stop/start journeys and short distance driving mainly.

I don't particularly enjoy queuing in traffic to and from work, where i'm literally down the road from the city centre and it's heaving. But i honestly would rather drive that get public transport.

I actually did used to work in the city centre and decided to get the tram when i first started. I then decided to give driving a go one morning and never looked back. It was cheaper, faster, less-hassle, more comfortable, more tolerable etc. It was a 2001 Ford KA at the time btw.

I'm in no way comparing Manchester to London, before anyone lunges at me. I also don't drive or have ever driven a diesel as my own car

Edited by culpz on Wednesday 14th December 08:53

[otolith]

I used to work in central Manchester, 20 years ago. I commuted in from Stalybridge. It was nice to drive in occasionally when I worked on a Sunday and could actually park somewhere, but usually got the train. The culture in that office was very boozy, couple of pints every lunchtime and a couple more after work, so driving wouldn't have worked anyway.

[VerySideways]

Trabi601 said:

The irony being that the people whose lifestyle suits and EV park 2 streets away with no electricity and those who have adequate space to park and charge an EV wouldn't get to the nearest town and back on a single charge!

Exactly this.

[Guvernator]

If I was single I could possibly do without a car. I rarely use it to commute so it would really be used for shopping or social activities in the evenings and weekends.

However I'd still have one anyway as I like driving and I like the freedom, ease of use and comfort it gives me that with the best will in the world, public transport just can't match. Is it a luxury? Probably but one I gladly pay. If you don't drive during rush hour\peak times it's perfectly possible to get to most places in the same time or quicker and in infinitely more comfort. It's not actually gridlocked 24/7 like some people seem to think. I do have the luxury of living on the outskirts of London though which means I have plenty of space for off street parking and can get out of London and onto decent driving roads within 10 minutes.

Once you have a family as I do, the argument for owning a car becomes even more compelling as I wouldn't want to entrust my missus and daughter to the vagaries of public transport and all the drawbacks that entails. It may be better than most of the UK but it still ain't no picnic, especially with a child in tow.

We are probably a perfect target for a Hybrid or EV vehicle of some sort, at least for family duties as I have yet to see an EV car I'd consider buying for fun. In fact I'd probably be in one now if the choice of EV's\Hybrids was more compelling. I'm glad the mainstream manufacturers finally seem to be catching up though getting some decent choices now. My next family car will almost certainly be an EV or Hybrid.

[Devil2575]

VerySideways said:

Trabi601 said:

The irony being that the people whose lifestyle suits and EV park 2 streets away with no electricity and those who have adequate space to park and charge an EV wouldn't get to the nearest town and back on a single charge!

Exactly this.

Errr. No.

I have a garage with multiple power sockets in. My closest large town centre is 10 miles away.

Plenty of people with a drive way/garage live within 20-30 miles of a town centre, even in the South east.