Auto box failed during oil change at garage
Discussion
Hi all, - hypothetical question, asking for a friend etc etc.
Say you had a car of reasonable mileage - 80-100K with an auto gearbox which the manufacturer claims is "sealed for life" - (but anecdotally many owners opt to service the box around the 100K mark)
You take said car to a specialist to have the oil changed for preventative purposes, gearbox has had no issues.
The garage then phones you up to say that following the oil change, they could not get the car to start and say that the gearbox has failed.
The reason they give is that it is possible that some auto gearboxes, rarely, during an oil change will just fail. They state that the exact same thing would have happened at any other garage and therefore couldnt possibly be accountable for it.
What would be your thoughts/approach to it?
Say you had a car of reasonable mileage - 80-100K with an auto gearbox which the manufacturer claims is "sealed for life" - (but anecdotally many owners opt to service the box around the 100K mark)
You take said car to a specialist to have the oil changed for preventative purposes, gearbox has had no issues.
The garage then phones you up to say that following the oil change, they could not get the car to start and say that the gearbox has failed.
The reason they give is that it is possible that some auto gearboxes, rarely, during an oil change will just fail. They state that the exact same thing would have happened at any other garage and therefore couldnt possibly be accountable for it.
What would be your thoughts/approach to it?
Edited by devonknows on Friday 4th November 20:10
devonknows said:
The reason they give is that it is possible that some auto gearboxes, rarely, during an oil change will just fail. They state that the exact same thing would have happened at any other garage and therefore couldnt possibly be accountable for it.
Did they tell you this before you approved the work? Did you sign anything to the effect that you acknowledge that this is a "sealed for life" gearbox and not designed to have its oil changed? If not, it sounds like their work has caused the gearbox to fail whilst it was in their care. Automatic gearboxes don't usually use oil.
Issues with the ZF4HP22 box as used on the Range Rover Classic & Disco 1 following a fluid & filter change are well known, but I wouldn't expect it to be instant:
http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/frequently...
Q "I have a 4 speed ZF Auto and it sticks in first gear in the morning or when cold and is reluctant to change up from 1st gear. Once the gearbox has warmed up it shifts normally. Why?"
A "The governor valve is sticking, which can be caused by contamination. i.e. clutch plates or other parts disintegrating. The fine debris finds its way past the filter and tends to accumulate in the governor, causing it to stick. A temporary solution is to remove and clean the governor. The problem will often recur as debris from damaged parts continues to build up in the governor. If the problem continues after cleaning the governor then it may be necessary it replace your Autobox.
We have noticed many customers reporting this fault starting a few days after an oil and filter change and after researching this using our experience and the expertise of others in the trade we have come to the conclusion that as ATF oil is a detergent type oil, when the oil is changed this will dislodge and stir up settled debris in the autobox which in turn jams the governor valve. In light of this although it sounds controversial it is debateable if changing the oil and filter is a good idea, some say if the box it going to fail it will fail if the oil is good or bad and their advice is leave it alone. I am still undecided but the truth is I get a lot of calls from customers thinking they are looking after the autobox by servicing it and a few days later this fault occurs."
Issues with the ZF4HP22 box as used on the Range Rover Classic & Disco 1 following a fluid & filter change are well known, but I wouldn't expect it to be instant:
http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/frequently...
Q "I have a 4 speed ZF Auto and it sticks in first gear in the morning or when cold and is reluctant to change up from 1st gear. Once the gearbox has warmed up it shifts normally. Why?"
A "The governor valve is sticking, which can be caused by contamination. i.e. clutch plates or other parts disintegrating. The fine debris finds its way past the filter and tends to accumulate in the governor, causing it to stick. A temporary solution is to remove and clean the governor. The problem will often recur as debris from damaged parts continues to build up in the governor. If the problem continues after cleaning the governor then it may be necessary it replace your Autobox.
We have noticed many customers reporting this fault starting a few days after an oil and filter change and after researching this using our experience and the expertise of others in the trade we have come to the conclusion that as ATF oil is a detergent type oil, when the oil is changed this will dislodge and stir up settled debris in the autobox which in turn jams the governor valve. In light of this although it sounds controversial it is debateable if changing the oil and filter is a good idea, some say if the box it going to fail it will fail if the oil is good or bad and their advice is leave it alone. I am still undecided but the truth is I get a lot of calls from customers thinking they are looking after the autobox by servicing it and a few days later this fault occurs."
ABC 123 said:
They're being a bit obscure about it. I also question why they've felt the need to involve 'other' garages and say it would happen with them too. 
It's probably me being a bit obscure about it, as theres a potential £2000 bill at stake so just trying to be cautious about what I say, but still being really appreciative of your views.The garage is a well respected, recommended and long standing specialist.
What they stated was that my car could have had a ZF or GM gearbox, mine as an early model had a GM gearbox. They state they did everything in the correct way with the oil change, but having spoke to contacts at other garages, they say that something in the process of dropping the oil, or putting the new oil in, has caused the mechatronics of the gearbox to catastrophically fail.
I have arranged to go in and speak to the owner regarding apportionment of cost for next steps. Understandably I'm not really keen to agree to pay any percentage of the cost of rectifying this because I don't really see how the cost could sit with me.
Meanwhile I have no car which is obviously very inconvenient.
devonknows said:
Hi all, - hypothetical question, asking for a friend etc etc.
Say you had a car of reasonable mileage - 80-100K with an auto gearbox which the manufacturer claims is "sealed for life" - (but anecdotally many owners opt to service the box around the 100K mark)
You take said car to a specialist to have the oil changed for preventative purposes, gearbox has had no issues.
The garage then phones you up to say that following the oil change, they could not get the car to start and say that the gearbox has failed.
The reason they give is that it is possible that some auto gearboxes, rarely, during an oil change will just fail. They state that the exact same thing would have happened at any other garage and therefore couldnt possibly be accountable for it.
What would be your thoughts/approach to it?
Can't see how a failed auto box would cause it not to start? They usually play up after an oil change but wouldn't fail straight away.Say you had a car of reasonable mileage - 80-100K with an auto gearbox which the manufacturer claims is "sealed for life" - (but anecdotally many owners opt to service the box around the 100K mark)
You take said car to a specialist to have the oil changed for preventative purposes, gearbox has had no issues.
The garage then phones you up to say that following the oil change, they could not get the car to start and say that the gearbox has failed.
The reason they give is that it is possible that some auto gearboxes, rarely, during an oil change will just fail. They state that the exact same thing would have happened at any other garage and therefore couldnt possibly be accountable for it.
What would be your thoughts/approach to it?
Edited by devonknows on Friday 4th November 20:10
I call bulls
tWhat make / model?
So, draining the oil, and presumably filling it with the correct oil to the correct level, using the correct method, makes the car fail to start. No doubt they all do that, sir. When you say 'specialist', what exactly does that mean?
So, draining the oil, and presumably filling it with the correct oil to the correct level, using the correct method, makes the car fail to start. No doubt they all do that, sir. When you say 'specialist', what exactly does that mean?
Edited by tonys on Friday 4th November 21:13
carl_w said:
Did they tell you this before you approved the work? Did you sign anything to the effect that you acknowledge that this is a "sealed for life" gearbox and not designed to have its oil changed? If not, it sounds like their work has caused the gearbox to fail whilst it was in their care.
They said to me "Why do you want the oil changing, as we don't have many people asking for this" - I stated that as it was approaching 100K i thought it would be a good preventative step. I asked them if it was a job they were capable of performing, or whether I should take it to a gearbox specialist and they said it was well within their capability.They did not at any point tell me that they considered it possible that the gearbox could fail as a result, because I wouldn't have gone ahead with it if they had.
MDMA . said:
Just tell them to ring you when it's fixed. You'll have to hire a car in the meantime and will have to pass the costs on.
Let us know how you get on.
Do you function in the real world like this?Let us know how you get on.
The garage have done what was asked, something has failed as a consequence. Not their fault.
Just had the oil changed in my 'sealed for life' ZF 'box in my E90 330i. I supplied the fluid and the filter pan plus precise instructions from the ZF manual on how the drain and fill should be carried out, including checking the fill level when the box is at a temperature between 30 and 50 centigrade. Not following the procedure to the letter would result in the box being underfilled and would lead to damage.
I also had the mechatronic sleeve replaced at the same time, and disconnecting the multiplug from the gearbox necessitated a diagnostic computer being connected to the car and fault codes being reset before the car would start when the job was complete.
Can't be proven, but I suspect that your chosen garage were ignorant of the correct process for draining and filling the 'box and contributed to the damage. Use of the wrong fluid is the most likely cause - mechatronic boxes require special fluid that is non-conductive, otherwise a massive short-circuit of the electronics occurs.
PS. 'Sealed for life' is a term used by the vehicle manufacturer, not the gearbox manufacturer. In my case ZF recommend a fluid change between 70,000 and 100,000 miles.
I also had the mechatronic sleeve replaced at the same time, and disconnecting the multiplug from the gearbox necessitated a diagnostic computer being connected to the car and fault codes being reset before the car would start when the job was complete.
Can't be proven, but I suspect that your chosen garage were ignorant of the correct process for draining and filling the 'box and contributed to the damage. Use of the wrong fluid is the most likely cause - mechatronic boxes require special fluid that is non-conductive, otherwise a massive short-circuit of the electronics occurs.
PS. 'Sealed for life' is a term used by the vehicle manufacturer, not the gearbox manufacturer. In my case ZF recommend a fluid change between 70,000 and 100,000 miles.
Edited by r11co on Friday 4th November 21:06
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