Auto box failed during oil change at garage

Auto box failed during oil change at garage

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Discussion

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Friday 4th November 2016
quotequote all
devonknows said:
You take said car to a specialist....
Exactly what kind of "specialist" do you have in mind? They come in so many flavours...

I reckon auto boxes are one of the least understood major components of a modern car. Which is why they are "sealed for life". To prevent muppets screwing them up.

lord trumpton

7,321 posts

125 months

Friday 4th November 2016
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i cant see a £2k bill here. Worst case is needing to have the mechatronic unit rebuilt.

Plenty of people offer an exchange service


Slow

6,973 posts

136 months

Friday 4th November 2016
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Not read beyond the first post so might have missed if someone has said but generally the accepted thing is if the box has passed 50/60k without a oil change is to not do one. The fresh oil loosens off crud which blocks it up or something. Certainly was true for my Td6.

S0 What

3,358 posts

171 months

Friday 4th November 2016
quotequote all
devonknows said:
Hi all, - hypothetical question, asking for a friend etc etc.

Say you had a car of reasonable mileage - 80-100K with an auto gearbox which the manufacturer claims is "sealed for life" - (but anecdotally many owners opt to service the box around the 100K mark)

You take said car to a specialist to have the oil changed for preventative purposes, gearbox has had no issues.

The garage then phones you up to say that following the oil change, they could not get the car to start and say that the gearbox has failed.

The reason they give is that it is possible that some auto gearboxes, rarely, during an oil change will just fail. They state that the exact same thing would have happened at any other garage and therefore couldnt possibly be accountable for it.

What would be your thoughts/approach to it?

Edited by devonknows on Friday 4th November 20:10
I would need to know what car and what box before comenting, i do love the uninformed anger on here sometimes rolleyes
Give us more info then somone who actually knows what's what may be able to give you an INFORMED opinion.
But having said that some boxes i would leave well aloan if there are no issues some i would concider it a good move to change the fluid in a sealed for life box, for instance the 2.2 vectra has known issues with the early boxes and i tend to avoid them.

Edited by S0 What on Friday 4th November 22:38

Riley Blue

20,915 posts

225 months

Saturday 5th November 2016
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
devonknows said:
You take said car to a specialist....
Exactly what kind of "specialist" do you have in mind? They come in so many flavours...
As it's a ZF six-speed, I'd suggest a ZF specialist. I did this with my A8, a fluid change and ECU flash cured a sticking solenoid and the box's operation is more 'slick' as a result.

andy43

9,548 posts

253 months

Saturday 5th November 2016
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r11co said:
Just had the oil changed in my 'sealed for life' ZF 'box in my E90 330i. I supplied the fluid and the filter pan plus precise instructions from the ZF manual on how the drain and fill should be carried out, including checking the fill level when the box is at a temperature between 30 and 50 centigrade. Not following the procedure to the letter would result in the box being underfilled and would lead to damage.

I also had the mechatronic sleeve replaced at the same time, and disconnecting the multiplug from the gearbox necessitated a diagnostic computer being connected to the car and fault codes being reset before the car would start when the job was complete.

Can't be proven, but I suspect that your chosen garage were ignorant of the correct process for draining and filling the 'box and contributed to the damage. Use of the wrong fluid is the most likely cause - mechatronic boxes require special fluid that is non-conductive, otherwise a massive short-circuit of the electronics occurs.

PS. 'Sealed for life' is a term used by the vehicle manufacturer, not the gearbox manufacturer. In my case ZF recommend a fluid change between 70,000 and 100,000 miles.

Edited by r11co on Friday 4th November 21:06
As above - I've had e46 and e91 filter and fluid changes and it's not something you can do in your own garage, it needs the BMW software and diagnostic kit to get the level correct at a certain oil temp. Ecu then needs to relearn. Not straighforward!
Some cars need filling via the dipstick tube while running the engine and draining the old fluid at the same time. Get that wrong and you'll knacker the box too.
Don't know what car we're discussing but I can see the potential for disaster if it's something they haven't got experience of.

Jimmy Recard

17,540 posts

178 months

Saturday 5th November 2016
quotequote all
Riley Blue said:
As it's a ZF six-speed, I'd suggest a ZF specialist. I did this with my A8, a fluid change and ECU flash cured a sticking solenoid and the box's operation is more 'slick' as a result.
Isn't it a GM gearbox? I'm guessing it's an older diesel BMW if the garage says that later models had a ZF gearbox

Riley Blue

20,915 posts

225 months

Saturday 5th November 2016
quotequote all
Jimmy Recard said:
Riley Blue said:
As it's a ZF six-speed, I'd suggest a ZF specialist. I did this with my A8, a fluid change and ECU flash cured a sticking solenoid and the box's operation is more 'slick' as a result.
Isn't it a GM gearbox? I'm guessing it's an older diesel BMW if the garage says that later models had a ZF gearbox
Yup, my error, I mis-read an earlier post.


Edited by Riley Blue on Saturday 5th November 11:47

SuperHangOn

3,486 posts

152 months

Saturday 5th November 2016
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I would have it carted to a reputable auto trans specialist. See what they find and take it from there.

I have only had positive results from atf changes but I only entrust the job to good specialists. I bet all these horror stories are clueless mechanics getting the oil level wrong/getting dirt inside/using the wrong oil etc etc.

Edited by SuperHangOn on Saturday 5th November 08:27

Sump

5,484 posts

166 months

Saturday 5th November 2016
quotequote all
Perfectly possible. But customer should be warned before hand on vehicles with more than 90k on it.

Clutch sludge built up and shifts onto valve body screen. If the transmission is dead then you can try cleaning valve body screens and giving it a clean. Will bring it back to life.

dvs_dave

8,581 posts

224 months

Saturday 5th November 2016
quotequote all
More info needed. Auto boxes don't just suddenly fail after a fluid and filter change and cause the engine to not start. The no start issue is either an unrelated coincidence, or the ECU thinks the box is in gear so is blocking the engine from starting. Could be a loose connection, or a dislodged shift mechanism.

Arnold Cunningham

3,758 posts

252 months

Saturday 5th November 2016
quotequote all
Zulu10's pretty much bang on the money with the technique.

Anecdotally, I have found some boxes to be a bit harsh immediately post oil & filter change - but they usually simmer down after a week or 2 - had this on a couple of boxes.

Would changing the oil cause a box to fail "there and then" - I'm sceptical. Could it cause it to block/fail in couple of hundred miles - maybe yes, and only due to sludge & crap shifting & if it was on it's way out anyway. If it's a new car to me that I care about, I usually do 3 changes in short succession (both engine & gearbox). You'd be astonished how much crap you still get out on change 2 & 3, leaving just a couple of hundred miles between each change. But it's also my opinion that oil change intervals generally are a bit on the long side.

Just IMVHO.

devonknows

Original Poster:

18 posts

88 months

Saturday 5th November 2016
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
Exactly what kind of "specialist" do you have in mind? They come in so many flavours...

I reckon auto boxes are one of the least understood major components of a modern car. Which is why they are "sealed for life". To prevent muppets screwing them up.
It was a marque specialist, rather than a gearbox specialist. That's the reason why I asked them if an auto gearbox oil change was something that they were familiar with, or whether they would recommend taking it to a transmission specialist. The car was also having some other work done, a rocker cover gasket.

I'm just trying to think of a different analogy: i.e. you take a car in for a spark plug change, and that model is known to very rarely, strip out the thread for the spark plugs requiring a new block (if helicoils couldnt be used for whatever reason). I feel like the if the owner isnt made aware of the risk up front they shouldnt be responsible for the cost to rectify.

I just wanted to get a feel from the community whether my expectations were unreasonable or not.



JHeardy

33 posts

121 months

Monday 7th November 2016
quotequote all
What car is it and how many miles has it covered?
It wouldn't be the first time ive heard of a autobox failing after an oil change, if it had any issues before (if you noticed them or not) it can often speed up the failure of the box
My wifes got an old 2004 530 160,000 miles and the box is quite tired now but been advised by Martin Lowe transmissions in barnsley not to change it otherwise it will fail.
Give them a call they are very helpfull and know their stuff

Sump

5,484 posts

166 months

Monday 7th November 2016
quotequote all
JHeardy said:
What car is it and how many miles has it covered?
It wouldn't be the first time ive heard of a autobox failing after an oil change, if it had any issues before (if you noticed them or not) it can often speed up the failure of the box
My wifes got an old 2004 530 160,000 miles and the box is quite tired now but been advised by Martin Lowe transmissions in barnsley not to change it otherwise it will fail.
Give them a call they are very helpfull and know their stuff
2004 530 have a 6HP26. You should change the fluid on this even if you have 160k. On the older GM boxes it isn't as good of an idea. Your old in the ZF fluid will simply burnout your solenoids on the valve body , then you will experience mis-shifts which a transmission specialist will diagnose as requiring a rebuild which is actually false and a common "scam" in the industry for the 6 speeds. Solenoid is failure is so common on these 6 speeds due to no one changing the fluid.

Zf boxes were specifically designed to have their valve bodys overhauled as a serviceable item but in this country no one does it as owners as they do have wearable components.

Transmission specialists make far more money from a rebuild than a service so it's not exactly in their best interest to give you the best possible advice.

Really, the only people who have their head screwed on are Mercedes, not only do they do their own boxes but they put a drain hole on the TC and it is part of routine service to change the oil at 60k.

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Monday 7th November 2016
quotequote all
Sump said:
Transmisison specialists make far more money from a rebuild than a service so it's not exactly in their best interest to give you the best possible advice.
That's too cynical.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 7th November 2016
quotequote all
Arnold Cunningham said:
Anecdotally, I have found some boxes to be a bit harsh immediately post oil & filter change - but they usually simmer down after a week or 2 - had this on a couple of boxes.
This is because the friction adaption value in the transmission control ecu will be wrong, as the new oil will have a significantly different lubricity to the old oil removed. (modern auto boxes monitor the "slip" value during shift events and adapt by modifying the hydraulic line pressure for each clutch/brake assy in the gearbox, in order to precisely control the slip profile and hence perceived shift quality)

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Monday 7th November 2016
quotequote all
Zulu 10 said:
It’s difficult to know how many posters on here have actually changed transmission fluid themselves
Done a few, ZF on LR - incl my RRC - & the earlier Torqueflyte. So far not had a problem.....


Zulu 10 said:
One funny story about doing this job is that a decade ago when I did the job on my Discovery I found graffiti in the sump of an auto box.
The graffiti had been scratched in to the plating on the inside with a scriber or similar implement, and related to the genetic origin and propensity for dishonesty of one of the fellow mechanics at the LR dealership. The Service Manager was furious when I called to ask if he had a mechanic called Bloggs working there...

Turns out that Bloggs had been hauled up for saying he'd done jobs when in fact he hadn't. Thereafter, as proof he would always leave a mark, or in my case his name and the date, scratched inside the sump when doing a fluid change. After he'd left the dealership, the next mechanic who did the job that time obviously found the date and Bloggs' name and decided to add his own comment that Bloggs was a *** **** expletive deletive.
I genuinely LOL'd at that.laugh

JHeardy

33 posts

121 months

Monday 7th November 2016
quotequote all
Sump said:
JHeardy said:
What car is it and how many miles has it covered?
It wouldn't be the first time ive heard of a autobox failing after an oil change, if it had any issues before (if you noticed them or not) it can often speed up the failure of the box
My wifes got an old 2004 530 160,000 miles and the box is quite tired now but been advised by Martin Lowe transmissions in barnsley not to change it otherwise it will fail.
Give them a call they are very helpfull and know their stuff
2004 530 have a 6HP26. You should change the fluid on this even if you have 160k. On the older GM boxes it isn't as good of an idea. Your old in the ZF fluid will simply burnout your solenoids on the valve body , then you will experience mis-shifts which a transmission specialist will diagnose as requiring a rebuild which is actually false and a common "scam" in the industry for the 6 speeds. Solenoid is failure is so common on these 6 speeds due to no one changing the fluid.

Zf boxes were specifically designed to have their valve bodys overhauled as a serviceable item but in this country no one does it as owners as they do have wearable components.

Transmission specialists make far more money from a rebuild than a service so it's not exactly in their best interest to give you the best possible advice.

Really, the only people who have their head screwed on are Mercedes, not only do they do their own boxes but they put a drain hole on the TC and it is part of routine service to change the oil at 60k.
Cheers Sump
I believe it has been changed when it had a new sump pan just before i got it at around 99k not had another since
The issues it has are 2nd to first down change can be a bit harsh at times (shunts a bit) it has had the software checked and updated which improved it short term until it re adapted. Also its a bit lazy ? Seems to be a bit delayed sometimes when setting off.

Matt UK

17,649 posts

199 months

Monday 7th November 2016
quotequote all
My trusted inde actually didn't want to take on a gearbox oil change for some of the reasons stated above.

Said that if its older / high miles you can dislodge a load of crap that can create more problems.
Reckoned if it felt fine, don't touch it. If it's got problems, an oil change won't solve them.
I pushed for a price anyway as I like a bit of preventative maintenance and he basically laughed and said "call it 3 grand so I afford to buy and fit another gearbox if required - hopefully that's put you off or sends you down the road to an automatic transmission specialist".
Have to admit, I respect his approach.

Edited by Matt UK on Monday 7th November 19:19