Auto box failed during oil change at garage

Auto box failed during oil change at garage

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Discussion

Arnold Cunningham

3,758 posts

252 months

Monday 7th November 2016
quotequote all
Excellent insight - thank you.

Max_Torque said:
This is because the friction adaption value in the transmission control ecu will be wrong, as the new oil will have a significantly different lubricity to the old oil removed. (modern auto boxes monitor the "slip" value during shift events and adapt by modifying the hydraulic line pressure for each clutch/brake assy in the gearbox, in order to precisely control the slip profile and hence perceived shift quality)

CarsOrBikes

1,135 posts

183 months

Monday 7th November 2016
quotequote all
Non start? Odd surely for an oil change alone.

I wonder if this mechatronics unit was damaged on removal............letting it hang on the bolts? I've known a tech do this, it broke at the connector, £2,600 part (BMW 3 series) go inspect perhaps. I'm not an auto expert, but have seen so many hanging sumps over the years, that the practice carrying on to plastic ones is asking for a problem.

That aside, if there is an issue inside the box that can cause this, you won't be able to hold the specialist to account I suspect. If they haven't worked 'in' there, what have they broken by removing oil? Wrong oil theory maybe, but if not, and they were asked to change it, that's all there is to it. Garages will have crazy prices soon if others insist on blaming them, or claiming for failures of already worn things that they touch at all or touch last.

Just because a vehicles owner doesn't understand the description and operation of a car, or its parts, or know the state of state of them, this shouldn't entitle them to hold others accountable for existing condition, wear, symptoms, or even failure in their custody, either once exposed or just because they handled it. Only my 2p of course:-)





JHeardy

33 posts

121 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
Sump said:
JHeardy said:
What car is it and how many miles has it covered?
It wouldn't be the first time ive heard of a autobox failing after an oil change, if it had any issues before (if you noticed them or not) it can often speed up the failure of the box
My wifes got an old 2004 530 160,000 miles and the box is quite tired now but been advised by Martin Lowe transmissions in barnsley not to change it otherwise it will fail.
Give them a call they are very helpfull and know their stuff
2004 530 have a 6HP26. You should change the fluid on this even if you have 160k. On the older GM boxes it isn't as good of an idea. Your old in the ZF fluid will simply burnout your solenoids on the valve body , then you will experience mis-shifts which a transmission specialist will diagnose as requiring a rebuild which is actually false and a common "scam" in the industry for the 6 speeds. Solenoid is failure is so common on these 6 speeds due to no one changing the fluid.

Zf boxes were specifically designed to have their valve bodys overhauled as a serviceable item but in this country no one does it as owners as they do have wearable components.

Transmission specialists make far more money from a rebuild than a service so it's not exactly in their best interest to give you the best possible advice.

Really, the only people who have their head screwed on are Mercedes, not only do they do their own boxes but they put a drain hole on the TC and it is part of routine service to change the oil at 60k.
Cheers Sump
I believe it has been changed when it had a new sump pan just before i got it at around 99k not had another since
The issues it has are 2nd to first down change can be a bit harsh at times (shunts a bit) it has had the software checked and updated which improved it short term until it re adapted. Also its a bit lazy ? Seems to be a bit delayed sometimes when setting off.

Sump

5,484 posts

166 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
JHeardy said:
Sump said:
JHeardy said:
What car is it and how many miles has it covered?
It wouldn't be the first time ive heard of a autobox failing after an oil change, if it had any issues before (if you noticed them or not) it can often speed up the failure of the box
My wifes got an old 2004 530 160,000 miles and the box is quite tired now but been advised by Martin Lowe transmissions in barnsley not to change it otherwise it will fail.
Give them a call they are very helpfull and know their stuff
2004 530 have a 6HP26. You should change the fluid on this even if you have 160k. On the older GM boxes it isn't as good of an idea. Your old in the ZF fluid will simply burnout your solenoids on the valve body , then you will experience mis-shifts which a transmission specialist will diagnose as requiring a rebuild which is actually false and a common "scam" in the industry for the 6 speeds. Solenoid is failure is so common on these 6 speeds due to no one changing the fluid.

Zf boxes were specifically designed to have their valve bodys overhauled as a serviceable item but in this country no one does it as owners as they do have wearable components.

Transmission specialists make far more money from a rebuild than a service so it's not exactly in their best interest to give you the best possible advice.

Really, the only people who have their head screwed on are Mercedes, not only do they do their own boxes but they put a drain hole on the TC and it is part of routine service to change the oil at 60k.
Cheers Sump
I believe it has been changed when it had a new sump pan just before i got it at around 99k not had another since
The issues it has are 2nd to first down change can be a bit harsh at times (shunts a bit) it has had the software checked and updated which improved it short term until it re adapted. Also its a bit lazy ? Seems to be a bit delayed sometimes when setting off.
Solenoids on the way out. If the update fixed it shortly then replacement of the solenoids or a service of the valvebody will fix this.

If it had an oil change at 100k then it makes even more sense to do it at 160k. Ignore Martin Lowe.


Edited by Sump on Tuesday 8th November 05:48

74merc

594 posts

191 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
^Mercedes stop putting drain plugs on the torque converter around the late 90's. They're probably the only manufacturer to make their own boxes alright and IIRC they supplied them to Jaguar and Maserati at one point in time.

Sump

5,484 posts

166 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
74merc said:
^Mercedes stop putting drain plugs on the torque converter around the late 90's. They're probably the only manufacturer to make their own boxes alright and IIRC they supplied them to Jaguar and Maserati at one point in time.
Wow! That is amazing! All those 722.9s that have had aftermarket drain plugs put on the TCs, crazy stuff. Just last month I drained a 722.9 from the TC, bloody mods hehe

Out of interest did you say that hoping you were right or something or have you not bothered checking the TCs ( if you work on them?)

devonknows

Original Poster:

18 posts

88 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
Car has now been taken to a transmission specialist who has conducted some diagnostic tests.

He has confirmed the mechatronic unit has failed, with a replacement cost close to £2000 (for the mechatronic unit only).

Apparently the dealer has known many of these units to fail as a result of voltage spikes.

I've had time to digest all of the comments on the thread - some stating that the specialist was at fault and should cover the cost, some stating that I should have been aware of the risks beforehand and therefore should cover the cost myself.

Having spoken to the garage previously they have stated they would be prepared to cover between 1/3 and 1/2 of the cost dependant on what the costs are.

I now need to consider how I'm going to approach the matter - so thanks for all of your advice!


Sump

5,484 posts

166 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
Great to hear that I was correct.

Fitting this will fix the problem:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-OE-ZF-ZF6HP19-ZF...

You do not need to overhaul the entire unit. Remove the valve body, replace the solenoids and refit.

Labour is 2 hours.

http://www.garageswirral.co.uk/services.html

These folks can also overhaul the valve body if you want to send it to someone. £2k is too much.

Edited by Sump on Tuesday 8th November 16:13

carl_w

9,154 posts

257 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
Sump said:
Great to hear that I was correct.

Fitting this will fix the problem:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-OE-ZF-ZF6HP19-ZF...

You do not need to overhaul the entire unit. Remove the valve body, replace the solenoids and refit.
Isn't it a GM gearbox?

eliot

11,362 posts

253 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
Zulu 10 said:
If the fault was indeed caused by a voltage spike, then I'm unsure of how fitting new solenoids is likely to cure it, since inductors are fairly immune to spikes...

Given what we're now been told, I think it far more likely that a semiconductor has failed.
Must admit I cant see how relatively passive components such as solenoid are are going to fail.
Are there any electronics inside the unit?

Sump

5,484 posts

166 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
Sorry, mixed up JHeardy with OP hehe

Everyone ignore my solenoid post. Will leave it incase someone with a 6 speed ZF comes across the thread in the future.

MJK 24

5,648 posts

235 months

Tuesday 8th November 2016
quotequote all
74merc said:
^Mercedes stop putting drain plugs on the torque converter around the late 90's. They're probably the only manufacturer to make their own boxes alright and IIRC they supplied them to Jaguar and Maserati at one point in time.
And Porsche and Lotus!

devonknows

Original Poster:

18 posts

88 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
I have only just got my car back today.

It's a BMW e92 by the way

The specialist sent it to a main dealer, who replaced the mechatronics and the shifter unit at a combined cost of over £3000 with labour. This did not solve the issue.

It has been a big ball ache not having my car for three months but I'm fortunate the garage picked up the tab rather than me having to start litigation and be faced with a large repair bill myself.

I won't be getting any more preventative maintenance done on any gearboxes again!!!

In the end it was the gearshift selector rod - a £200 part.

Took over 3 months to get my car back. The specialist picked up the tab and didn't want any money for the £400 worth of work it went in for.



Edited by devonknows on Thursday 23 February 15:32

frankenstein12

1,915 posts

95 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
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Who was the specialist? Credit where due they did right by a customer when the reality was it was not necessarily their fault the problem arose.

zedx19

2,702 posts

139 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
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Wow, great result and credit to the specialist.

Sheepshanks

32,520 posts

118 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
zedx19 said:
Wow, great result and credit to the specialist.
Really? I thought franchised dealers sent tricky problems out to specialists, not the other way around.

JakeT

5,406 posts

119 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
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Specialist did well there, definitely. I hope you'll be going back in the future!

M3Gar

614 posts

122 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
I would also be interested to know who the specialist was.
We had our E91 335d box oil done at MBS Exeter, without any issues.