The cheek of some people when selling your car
Discussion
Most of it is to be expected when selling a car these days but some really do leave you asking yourself what planet do these people live on.
I advertised a car on autotrader and ebay. Full service history, HPI clear and a full list of modifications and some very good photos showing ever wart bar the smallest imperfection.
Bloke rings up and asks me a few questions but keeps banging on about how he wants it purely as a track car so doesn't want to pay much as it's just going to sit around a lot as it's going to be purely a track car. He asks if the car is Hpi clear and I reply it is and also give him a lot more info re how much work it has had done recently, how in depth the history is with all the invoices, dyno sheets etc as he doesn't seem interested in those details but as it's important I make sure he knows what he is buying. So we do the usual what your bottom price etc etc and as I have a potential replacement in view I drop a grand off the asking if he comes today and takes it but I would not take one penny less so don't even bother to turn up if you want even more off (bear in mind the asking price was ridiculously low as I wanted a quick sale as with the spec and condition it is worth a lot more and nothing much is priced as low).
So a few hours later his girlfriend and his mate turn up to look at it. Now I must explain that at no time did he ask had the car ever had any paintwork. It was obvious from the pictures that one door had a slight colour mismatch so had obviously been painted and the bumpers were aftermarket ones so they had also (quality was good just the door colour itself was a tiny shade off). His mate starts with the why didn't you say it had been painted so I reply it's bloody obvious it has had paint in the past and is plain as day in the advert and at no time had anyone asked if it had been painted. So I take his mate out for a test drive over various types of road to show how it runs and rides etc but he just doesn't pay attention, doesn't want to drive himself either. So we get back and I'm ready to crack out the thick history file for them to have a look through and matey boy says they need to go for a coffee. No problem, 10 mins later I get a phone call asking to lower the price which I decline. He says he'll ring me back in a minute and that's the last I hear.
Hours later the original bloke who rang texts me a whining diatribe about how I've wasted everyones time (even though I've taken time off work at short notice to accommodate them) and money and I should have been truthful about the (bloody obvious fact it had at some stage had a door and bumpers painted) car and how poorly sick he is as if that has any bearing on buying a car.
So from wanting a cheap well spec'd track toy he goes to wanting a full on pristine show car. For reference the type of car he appears to want start at double the price I was willing to accept for mine.
I advertised a car on autotrader and ebay. Full service history, HPI clear and a full list of modifications and some very good photos showing ever wart bar the smallest imperfection.
Bloke rings up and asks me a few questions but keeps banging on about how he wants it purely as a track car so doesn't want to pay much as it's just going to sit around a lot as it's going to be purely a track car. He asks if the car is Hpi clear and I reply it is and also give him a lot more info re how much work it has had done recently, how in depth the history is with all the invoices, dyno sheets etc as he doesn't seem interested in those details but as it's important I make sure he knows what he is buying. So we do the usual what your bottom price etc etc and as I have a potential replacement in view I drop a grand off the asking if he comes today and takes it but I would not take one penny less so don't even bother to turn up if you want even more off (bear in mind the asking price was ridiculously low as I wanted a quick sale as with the spec and condition it is worth a lot more and nothing much is priced as low).
So a few hours later his girlfriend and his mate turn up to look at it. Now I must explain that at no time did he ask had the car ever had any paintwork. It was obvious from the pictures that one door had a slight colour mismatch so had obviously been painted and the bumpers were aftermarket ones so they had also (quality was good just the door colour itself was a tiny shade off). His mate starts with the why didn't you say it had been painted so I reply it's bloody obvious it has had paint in the past and is plain as day in the advert and at no time had anyone asked if it had been painted. So I take his mate out for a test drive over various types of road to show how it runs and rides etc but he just doesn't pay attention, doesn't want to drive himself either. So we get back and I'm ready to crack out the thick history file for them to have a look through and matey boy says they need to go for a coffee. No problem, 10 mins later I get a phone call asking to lower the price which I decline. He says he'll ring me back in a minute and that's the last I hear.
Hours later the original bloke who rang texts me a whining diatribe about how I've wasted everyones time (even though I've taken time off work at short notice to accommodate them) and money and I should have been truthful about the (bloody obvious fact it had at some stage had a door and bumpers painted) car and how poorly sick he is as if that has any bearing on buying a car.
So from wanting a cheap well spec'd track toy he goes to wanting a full on pristine show car. For reference the type of car he appears to want start at double the price I was willing to accept for mine.
Bought a car in Canada. A week before my flights home I started to get concerned about still having it so I wacked it on craigslist for how much I paid for it, plus 300 dollars for the repairs I had carried out.
Within hours a middle aged chap was looking at it. I knocked 50 dollars off towards some new brake pads and showed him the list of emails of people who were interested after him, to show that if it turned out to be no good he would get his money back.
I had a free car for a year, he got a bargain. Perfect.
Every other car I've owned has not survived past my ownership...
Within hours a middle aged chap was looking at it. I knocked 50 dollars off towards some new brake pads and showed him the list of emails of people who were interested after him, to show that if it turned out to be no good he would get his money back.
I had a free car for a year, he got a bargain. Perfect.
Every other car I've owned has not survived past my ownership...
wolf1 said:
Most of it is to be expected when selling a car these days but some really do leave you asking yourself what planet do these people live on.
I advertised a car on autotrader and ebay. Full service history, HPI clear and a full list of modifications and some very good photos showing ever wart bar the smallest imperfection.
Bloke rings up and asks me a few questions but keeps banging on about how he wants it purely as a track car so doesn't want to pay much as it's just going to sit around a lot as it's going to be purely a track car. He asks if the car is Hpi clear and I reply it is and also give him a lot more info re how much work it has had done recently, how in depth the history is with all the invoices, dyno sheets etc as he doesn't seem interested in those details but as it's important I make sure he knows what he is buying. So we do the usual what your bottom price etc etc and as I have a potential replacement in view I drop a grand off the asking if he comes today and takes it but I would not take one penny less so don't even bother to turn up if you want even more off (bear in mind the asking price was ridiculously low as I wanted a quick sale as with the spec and condition it is worth a lot more and nothing much is priced as low).
So a few hours later his girlfriend and his mate turn up to look at it. Now I must explain that at no time did he ask had the car ever had any paintwork. It was obvious from the pictures that one door had a slight colour mismatch so had obviously been painted and the bumpers were aftermarket ones so they had also (quality was good just the door colour itself was a tiny shade off). His mate starts with the why didn't you say it had been painted so I reply it's bloody obvious it has had paint in the past and is plain as day in the advert and at no time had anyone asked if it had been painted. So I take his mate out for a test drive over various types of road to show how it runs and rides etc but he just doesn't pay attention, doesn't want to drive himself either. So we get back and I'm ready to crack out the thick history file for them to have a look through and matey boy says they need to go for a coffee. No problem, 10 mins later I get a phone call asking to lower the price which I decline. He says he'll ring me back in a minute and that's the last I hear.
Hours later the original bloke who rang texts me a whining diatribe about how I've wasted everyones time (even though I've taken time off work at short notice to accommodate them) and money and I should have been truthful about the (bloody obvious fact it had at some stage had a door and bumpers painted) car and how poorly sick he is as if that has any bearing on buying a car.
So from wanting a cheap well spec'd track toy he goes to wanting a full on pristine show car. For reference the type of car he appears to want start at double the price I was willing to accept for mine.
yeah I wouldn't buy a car like that as well where you havent mentioned such a 'small detail' as it being possibly crashed and painted..I advertised a car on autotrader and ebay. Full service history, HPI clear and a full list of modifications and some very good photos showing ever wart bar the smallest imperfection.
Bloke rings up and asks me a few questions but keeps banging on about how he wants it purely as a track car so doesn't want to pay much as it's just going to sit around a lot as it's going to be purely a track car. He asks if the car is Hpi clear and I reply it is and also give him a lot more info re how much work it has had done recently, how in depth the history is with all the invoices, dyno sheets etc as he doesn't seem interested in those details but as it's important I make sure he knows what he is buying. So we do the usual what your bottom price etc etc and as I have a potential replacement in view I drop a grand off the asking if he comes today and takes it but I would not take one penny less so don't even bother to turn up if you want even more off (bear in mind the asking price was ridiculously low as I wanted a quick sale as with the spec and condition it is worth a lot more and nothing much is priced as low).
So a few hours later his girlfriend and his mate turn up to look at it. Now I must explain that at no time did he ask had the car ever had any paintwork. It was obvious from the pictures that one door had a slight colour mismatch so had obviously been painted and the bumpers were aftermarket ones so they had also (quality was good just the door colour itself was a tiny shade off). His mate starts with the why didn't you say it had been painted so I reply it's bloody obvious it has had paint in the past and is plain as day in the advert and at no time had anyone asked if it had been painted. So I take his mate out for a test drive over various types of road to show how it runs and rides etc but he just doesn't pay attention, doesn't want to drive himself either. So we get back and I'm ready to crack out the thick history file for them to have a look through and matey boy says they need to go for a coffee. No problem, 10 mins later I get a phone call asking to lower the price which I decline. He says he'll ring me back in a minute and that's the last I hear.
Hours later the original bloke who rang texts me a whining diatribe about how I've wasted everyones time (even though I've taken time off work at short notice to accommodate them) and money and I should have been truthful about the (bloody obvious fact it had at some stage had a door and bumpers painted) car and how poorly sick he is as if that has any bearing on buying a car.
So from wanting a cheap well spec'd track toy he goes to wanting a full on pristine show car. For reference the type of car he appears to want start at double the price I was willing to accept for mine.
The only dodgy one I've had is when I was selling a well used 05' Legacy Estate with 157,000 miles on the clock. It had been a proper workhorse and had towed a sailing boat a lot of its life.
Anyway I put it up for £2k knowing I'd be happy to take £1600. I get a call from a rough sounding Irish chap and I thought right, here we go! Straight away I got the 'best price' pitch and told him '£1600 rock bottom'. He agrees and says he'll be round in half hour. I make it crystal clear to him that I'm not haggling or budging on price at all.
So he turns up in a Shogan towing a caravan, I start s
tting myself thinking 4 more will turn up and start pitching up in the field opposite my house. Anyway he gets out with his lad, turns out it's for his son for towing ponies, must've only been 17 or so.
I begrudgingly take them out for a test drive (not knowing what I was letting myself in for), tell the missus that if I'm not back in half hour then call the police. I let the lad have a drive and he literally rags the st out of that boxer engine. Dad is in the back quite relaxed whilst I'm closing my eyes bracing for an impact!
Anyhow, we get back to mine in one piece, the guys missus had got out the Shogun and opened up the caravan to make a brew, was sitting on the step with the caravan door wide open tea in one hand fag in the other. They had two other kids who were taking the dog for a piss in me garden. I invite them in and get that stern frown from my missus.
They decide to have the car and tried knock a cheeky 50 quid off for fuel (which I declined) and then signed on the dotted line, very straight forward in the end. The guy was a real gent, very polite to my wife saying we had a lovely home and apologising for the inconvenience with it being this late (It was 10pm ish by this time).
The point I'm trying to make I guess is that because he was a traveller I stereotyped him and was suspicious from the off. Apart from the test drive (joyride?) and his dog taking a leak in my garden he was nothing like the stereotype.
Was funny when I gave him the V5 bit for him to fill out. None of them could read or write so had to do it for him. His signature was just an 'X'..... he didn't have trouble counting cash though!
As he was leaving he said 'can you do me a favour and keep the insurance on it for 24 hours'..... cheeky bu.gger!
Anyway I put it up for £2k knowing I'd be happy to take £1600. I get a call from a rough sounding Irish chap and I thought right, here we go! Straight away I got the 'best price' pitch and told him '£1600 rock bottom'. He agrees and says he'll be round in half hour. I make it crystal clear to him that I'm not haggling or budging on price at all.
So he turns up in a Shogan towing a caravan, I start s
tting myself thinking 4 more will turn up and start pitching up in the field opposite my house. Anyway he gets out with his lad, turns out it's for his son for towing ponies, must've only been 17 or so. I begrudgingly take them out for a test drive (not knowing what I was letting myself in for), tell the missus that if I'm not back in half hour then call the police. I let the lad have a drive and he literally rags the s
t out of that boxer engine. Dad is in the back quite relaxed whilst I'm closing my eyes bracing for an impact! Anyhow, we get back to mine in one piece, the guys missus had got out the Shogun and opened up the caravan to make a brew, was sitting on the step with the caravan door wide open tea in one hand fag in the other. They had two other kids who were taking the dog for a piss in me garden. I invite them in and get that stern frown from my missus.
They decide to have the car and tried knock a cheeky 50 quid off for fuel (which I declined) and then signed on the dotted line, very straight forward in the end. The guy was a real gent, very polite to my wife saying we had a lovely home and apologising for the inconvenience with it being this late (It was 10pm ish by this time).
The point I'm trying to make I guess is that because he was a traveller I stereotyped him and was suspicious from the off. Apart from the test drive (joyride?) and his dog taking a leak in my garden he was nothing like the stereotype.
Was funny when I gave him the V5 bit for him to fill out. None of them could read or write so had to do it for him. His signature was just an 'X'..... he didn't have trouble counting cash though!
As he was leaving he said 'can you do me a favour and keep the insurance on it for 24 hours'..... cheeky bu.gger!
bagusbagus said:
yeah I wouldn't buy a car like that as well where you havent mentioned such a 'small detail' as it being possibly crashed and painted..
It hadn't been crashed though that's the point. The repaint on the door was from being keyed and the original bumpers had been replaced for chargespeed items so no damage there either just an upgrade. So the small detail was exactly that. If they had bothered to check the massive history file that I had made available for them all the invoices relating to those items was there clear to see. They only asked if the car was HPI clear or been crashed not had it ever been painted. Maybe it's just me but I tend to check all the info available before jumping to conclusions about a prospective purchase. Failing to look properly at the pictures which identified the non original bumpers (which were also mentioned in the description as having non original aftermarket bumpers fitted) and a shade difference on a door which was so obvious stevie wonder quoted the two different paint codes when he walked past it (he didn't really but my sarcasm pixie crept out and made me do it) and then not even bothering to look at all the documented proof of the work carried out lost them a bargain as they flounced off as it wasn't a detailing world fan boy car.
Their loss really as the bloke who bought it was over the moon with it and still is.
Edited by wolf1 on Thursday 19th January 23:38
Pommygranite said:
Same here in Australia. Always fairly straightforward.
Not sure why the UK is full of clowns.
You're lucky. Not sure why the UK is full of clowns.
Sold both an Audi S3 and Golf R privately. Let's just say purchasers of a certain background are painful.
I sold the S3 to an Islander guy who was a dream to deal with. Came down with his mate, loved the car, knocked off $500 for his troubles and because we picked up a screw in the tyre on test drive.
Traded in the Golf as the guy who was going to buy it suddenly dropped his offer after leaving a deposit and me doing the rear brakes. I kept the deposit.
I bought my first MX-5 from a friend. He'd recently bought a new car and had no room to store the Mazda. He had it up for sale for £800, and in fairness I wasn't really interested. I liked the car, but not for £800. I told him I wasn't interested in buying it.
A few weeks later we went for a beer and he mentioned he was desperate to sell the MX-5. He'd halved the price to £400 (I still can't work out why nobody bought a decently-maintained UK MX-5 for that price). I lazily asked him if he'd take £350 for it - and his response was that if I bought the next round, he'd bring it over the next day. So I found myself in a lovely MX-5 for an absolute steal.
Fast forward a couple of years and I'd since sold the MX-5 to a friend (for what I paid for it). I decided to get another MX-5, and put a bid on eBay for a slightly better one. I won it at £800. Went to see the seller, lovely chap, and the car was 99% as described. The only thing I asked him was if I could pay him an extra £20 for him to put that much fuel in the tank. He declined the extra money and filled the car up completely out of his own pocket. A lovely experience from a complete stranger - not to mention he worked with Le Mans-spec GT and Formula 3 cars and let me have a nose around what was in the garage at the time.
A few weeks later we went for a beer and he mentioned he was desperate to sell the MX-5. He'd halved the price to £400 (I still can't work out why nobody bought a decently-maintained UK MX-5 for that price). I lazily asked him if he'd take £350 for it - and his response was that if I bought the next round, he'd bring it over the next day. So I found myself in a lovely MX-5 for an absolute steal.
Fast forward a couple of years and I'd since sold the MX-5 to a friend (for what I paid for it). I decided to get another MX-5, and put a bid on eBay for a slightly better one. I won it at £800. Went to see the seller, lovely chap, and the car was 99% as described. The only thing I asked him was if I could pay him an extra £20 for him to put that much fuel in the tank. He declined the extra money and filled the car up completely out of his own pocket. A lovely experience from a complete stranger - not to mention he worked with Le Mans-spec GT and Formula 3 cars and let me have a nose around what was in the garage at the time.
Sump said:
hedgefinder said:
the best ones are "I would buy it if it was a different colour"... why contact me then ? It isnt another colour FFS..... lol
This a million.It hasn't got the spec I want. It isn't the colour. It isn't a petrol.
Proper wtf, my ad says what my car is, why are you calling me exactly?
Why did you ring then?
bagusbagus said:
yeah I wouldn't buy a car like that as well where you havent mentioned such a 'small detail' as it being possibly crashed and painted..
Do you mention in an advert about every panel that may or may not have been painted on a car? I know i dont. I dont think there are many people who do?wolf1 said:
bagusbagus said:
yeah I wouldn't buy a car like that as well where you havent mentioned such a 'small detail' as it being possibly crashed and painted..
It hadn't been crashed though that's the point. The repaint on the door was from being keyed and the original bumpers had been replaced for chargespeed items so no damage there either just an upgrade. So the small detail was exactly that. If they had bothered to check the massive history file that I had made available for them all the invoices relating to those items was there clear to see. They only asked if the car was HPI clear or been crashed not had it ever been painted. Maybe it's just me but I tend to check all the info available before jumping to conclusions about a prospective purchase. Failing to look properly at the pictures which identified the non original bumpers (which were also mentioned in the description as having non original aftermarket bumpers fitted) and a shade difference on a door which was so obvious stevie wonder quoted the two different paint codes when he walked past it (he didn't really but my sarcasm pixie crept out and made me do it) and then not even bothering to look at all the documented proof of the work carried out lost them a bargain as they flounced off as it wasn't a detailing world fan boy car.
Their loss really as the bloke who bought it was over the moon with it and still is.
Edited by wolf1 on Thursday 19th January 23:38
I'd a "similar" problem when selling a modded Clio 172 that was registered as Cat C. Had it on for £1295. Guy rings, clearly expecting a "mint" car. I said that i didnt think the car would align to his expectations if he was looking something to keep and cosset, pointed out the bad bits over the phone and strongly suggested he spend a bit more and find a mint one.
But no, he "had" to come out. So i sat in for the evening. Turns up, round the car, and over the car and under the car. Pointing out every mark, scratch, rattle, non original part (coilovers, strut braces, upgraded exhaust, induction kit) and how much it was going to cost to return it to standard and mint condition.
Partly by being worn down and just wanting my life back he got me knocked back to £900, subject to a test drive on a wet rainy night (car was garaged, polished up, dry, looking its best, kept under a cover) so i reluctantly agreed. He takes the car down the road, and notices a suspension "clunk", declares its a major fault in the gearbox and drops his price back to £700 (it was a gearbox mount worn and a common fault).
By this time i just said "guys, its clearly not the car you want - as i told you it wasnt 3 hours ago on the phone so i suggest you look elsewhere for one that meets your high expectations of a £1,000 car", took the keys back and ushered them out of the garage.
The following day he texts to say he'd "do me a favour" and give me £800 subject to getting the car up on ramps first, which i declined to reply to.
Sold the car the following evening for £1120 to a guy looking it for track use who came out and fell in love with it and saw it for exactly what it was - a fun cheapie fast clio.
daemon said:
Do you mention in an advert about every panel that may or may not have been painted on a car? I know i dont. I dont think there are many people who do?
Well, I wouldn't mention every panel if they were the same colour, but I'd definitely put "door has been resprayed after petty vandalism. Colour match isn't perfect" or similar in the description.boyse7en said:
daemon said:
Do you mention in an advert about every panel that may or may not have been painted on a car? I know i dont. I dont think there are many people who do?
Well, I wouldn't mention every panel if they were the same colour, but I'd definitely put "door has been resprayed after petty vandalism. Colour match isn't perfect" or similar in the description.I sold an MGTF some years ago and put in the advert "bodywork perfect except for one very minor small crease low on passenger door caused by someone elses door"
I'd a couple came out to view it and they jumped out of their car, practically ran past me and round to the passenger side door to see this tiny mark and then were studying it while i was trying to explain the many merits of the car - FSH, low miles, good colour, etc, etc.
Also the reality of petty vandalism might be this....
But if you put what your describe in the advert they'll be thinking this...
Edited by daemon on Friday 20th January 10:14
My friend had a slightly different tale about 25 years ago. She was selling an xj6, couple of geezers turn up kick the tyres, rev the bllx out of the engine on test drive and then pay asking price in cash. .
Can you guess where this is going.....
About 3 weeks later her road is cordoned off and she has armed police battering her front door down. .
Geezers had used the jag for an armed robbery.
Not sure how long it took for v5 update then but obviously it was still showing as her address.
Can you guess where this is going.....
About 3 weeks later her road is cordoned off and she has armed police battering her front door down. .
Geezers had used the jag for an armed robbery.
Not sure how long it took for v5 update then but obviously it was still showing as her address.
indigostr said:
My friend had a slightly different tale about 25 years ago. She was selling an xj6, couple of geezers turn up kick the tyres, rev the bllx out of the engine on test drive and then pay asking price in cash. .
Can you guess where this is going.....
About 3 weeks later her road is cordoned off and she has armed police battering her front door down. .
Geezers had used the jag for an armed robbery.
Not sure how long it took for v5 update then but obviously it was still showing as her address.
I'd that many years ago too - a Ford Orion 1.6i GLS. Three blokes came out, insisted on meeting me at a roundabout, one took it for a test drive (presumably "the driver"), revved it out every gear, came back and paid the asking price.Can you guess where this is going.....
About 3 weeks later her road is cordoned off and she has armed police battering her front door down. .
Geezers had used the jag for an armed robbery.
Not sure how long it took for v5 update then but obviously it was still showing as her address.
Several weeks later i got a call from plod asking had i any record of who i sold it to - it had been used in an armed robbery.
Other side of the coin, some sellers are not good to deal with.
Some years ago I arranged to fly from Aberdeen to East Midlands to view a car, the owner knew I was flying down Saturday evening and I had booked a hotel near him so I could view the car Sunday morning.
I got a text from him Sat lunchtime saying not to come as he had sold the car
Some years ago I arranged to fly from Aberdeen to East Midlands to view a car, the owner knew I was flying down Saturday evening and I had booked a hotel near him so I could view the car Sunday morning.
I got a text from him Sat lunchtime saying not to come as he had sold the car
I find this really shocking.
I have always agreed price over the phone and turned up with the full asking price.
Generally before I leave I have got lots of images and maybe a video but even if I see something I didnt spot that is small, I dont bother to try knock something off, I just take it as part of buying a used car.
I wouldnt have the cheek to try knock someone down for more.
Weird
I have always agreed price over the phone and turned up with the full asking price.
Generally before I leave I have got lots of images and maybe a video but even if I see something I didnt spot that is small, I dont bother to try knock something off, I just take it as part of buying a used car.
I wouldnt have the cheek to try knock someone down for more.
Weird
XMT said:
I find this really shocking.
I have always agreed price over the phone and turned up with the full asking price.
Generally before I leave I have got lots of images and maybe a video but even if I see something I didnt spot that is small, I dont bother to try knock something off, I just take it as part of buying a used car.
I wouldnt have the cheek to try knock someone down for more.
Weird
I think it depends on what level you are talking about. If you are buying a £40k second hand Merc then I think you have a right to question every dent and scratch that wasn't on the description.I have always agreed price over the phone and turned up with the full asking price.
Generally before I leave I have got lots of images and maybe a video but even if I see something I didnt spot that is small, I dont bother to try knock something off, I just take it as part of buying a used car.
I wouldnt have the cheek to try knock someone down for more.
Weird
If you are buying a £300 banger through Gumtree you don't.
indigostr said:
My friend had a slightly different tale about 25 years ago. She was selling an xj6, couple of geezers turn up kick the tyres, rev the bllx out of the engine on test drive and then pay asking price in cash. .
Can you guess where this is going.....
About 3 weeks later her road is cordoned off and she has armed police battering her front door down. .
Geezers had used the jag for an armed robbery.
Not sure how long it took for v5 update then but obviously it was still showing as her address.
my old man had that (except his was an old Peugeot 305)Can you guess where this is going.....
About 3 weeks later her road is cordoned off and she has armed police battering her front door down. .
Geezers had used the jag for an armed robbery.
Not sure how long it took for v5 update then but obviously it was still showing as her address.
Cops came to the door early in the morning, he answered the door in full prison officers uniform, just got in from night shift
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