HELP: BMW 330E 200 miles to empty.

HELP: BMW 330E 200 miles to empty.

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jamieduff1981

8,022 posts

139 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
The Beaver King said:
I've mentioned it in my comment above, but the German PHEV all have regenerative braking. That said, you'll only recover maybe 10% of the battery capacity on a journey; it just isn't a huge amount of energy.

You also need to bear in mind that the Prius etc only use battery up to 20-30 mph; the PHEVs will run solely on battery upto 80 mph for 15-20 miles. Absolutely brilliant for me as I can 75% of my commute on battery and the remainder is done at 70 mph on the motorway.

I'm easily getting over 99 mpg each morning. The downside is long distance; anything over 50 miles sees my mpg drop to circa 40 mpg. I've driven from Birmingham to Newcastle and back again and my mpg over the whole trip was 37 mpg. No brilliant, but hardly horrific. Journeys like that for me are a once every few month occurance.

TLDR; great for short commutes, not great for long distance. Dirty cheap BiK.

Eutopia is company car with inclusive fuel car. The tax is disgustingly low for a 280 bhp Mercedes....
That does sound better although it's a shame it doesn't do so well at long distance, surely that's just a matter of programming it better? Add a switchable long distance cruise mode so it uses the battery sparingly but for longer. Not sure what the Prius does but I'm pretty sure the mpg doesn't just drop off after 50 miles, the Prius one just seems to be slightly better thought out in that regard.
Over long distance it's just a fuel powered car. The Prius is crap long distance too. The power has to come from somewhere. Driving well enough to be economical means there isn't much regenerative braking to be had, which means all the power either comes from a charge-up point or from petrol. It doesn't really matter what programming it has in that respect; it can use up all the energy added from the charge up point before using petrol, or it can spread the petrol use out. If travelling significantly further than the pure electric range then it's just a heavy petrol engine car and will use exactly the same amount of fuel thereafter as a heavy petrol engine car would. You could programme it differently and introduce petrol consumption earlier or later, but a 2000kg car on a 200 mile trip needs a corresponding amount of energy to spend. If the battery range is 30 miles then it needs the liquid fuel a pure petrol 2000kg car would need to travel 170 miles.

Super Slo Mo

5,368 posts

197 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
That does sound better although it's a shame it doesn't do so well at long distance, surely that's just a matter of programming it better? Add a switchable long distance cruise mode so it uses the battery sparingly but for longer. Not sure what the Prius does but I'm pretty sure the mpg doesn't just drop off after 50 miles, the Prius one just seems to be slightly better thought out in that regard.
Assuming the non-plug in Prius is the same as the Auris, which it should be given it's the same running gear (perhaps the latest Prius is different), it will use battery only at speeds up to 45 mpg, although only on a very light throttle. Any kind of acceleration above walking pace sees the engine being brought into use.
The Prius system seems to be that the battery supplements the engine most of the time, so that the engine doesn't work so hard, and can operate at more efficient constant revs. The engine also doesn't rev very hard (circa 5,000 rpm like a diesel), which helps.
It all adds up to a car that performs very similarly to a 2.0 diesel in all ways apart from noise and lack of 'turbo lethargy' (I don't want to call it Lag, as it's not really, it's the off-boost element of a diesel that I'm referring to).

Sten.

2,186 posts

133 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Soov535 said:
7% BIK.

The end.
Very much this.

I'd be surprised if many of these ever see a plug socket. It's all about the tax savings as a company car and little to do with MPG.

The Beaver King

6,095 posts

194 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Sten. said:
Soov535 said:
7% BIK.

The end.
Very much this.

I'd be surprised if many of these ever see a plug socket. It's all about the tax savings as a company car and little to do with MPG.
And this explains what I was saying above. The German manufacturers know what the company car market wants and that is low BiK and decent performance.

If you've got an all-in fuel car as well, you can happily boot around in sports mode, chucking out similar performance to a BMW 330/530 or C300/E300, but paying tax akin to a 1.2 diesel Corsa.

Guvernator

13,105 posts

164 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
The Beaver King said:
And this explains what I was saying above. The German manufacturers know what the company car market wants and that is low BiK and decent performance.

If you've got an all-in fuel car as well, you can happily boot around in sports mode, chucking out similar performance to a BMW 330/530 or C300/E300, but paying tax akin to a 1.2 diesel Corsa.
So what happens when the government eventually catches on and it looks like they are already and starts taxing these cars accordingly? They have to make up the shortfall from lost tax revenue somewhere after-all. Just concentrating on BiK seems quite short sighted if that's the aim as they can pretty much change the rules at will.

Soov535

35,829 posts

270 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
The Beaver King said:
Sten. said:
Soov535 said:
7% BIK.

The end.
Very much this.

I'd be surprised if many of these ever see a plug socket. It's all about the tax savings as a company car and little to do with MPG.
And this explains what I was saying above. The German manufacturers know what the company car market wants and that is low BiK and decent performance.

If you've got an all-in fuel car as well, you can happily boot around in sports mode, chucking out similar performance to a BMW 330/530 or C300/E300, but paying tax akin to a 1.2 diesel Corsa.
BING!



Soov535

35,829 posts

270 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
The Beaver King said:
And this explains what I was saying above. The German manufacturers know what the company car market wants and that is low BiK and decent performance.

If you've got an all-in fuel car as well, you can happily boot around in sports mode, chucking out similar performance to a BMW 330/530 or C300/E300, but paying tax akin to a 1.2 diesel Corsa.
So what happens when the government eventually catches on and it looks like they are already and starts taxing these cars accordingly? They have to make up the shortfall from lost tax revenue somewhere after-all. Just concentrating on BiK seems quite short sighted if that's the aim as they can pretty much change the rules at will.
It's already set out for the next few years. Mine is a three year lease.


anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
It's rising considerably over the next 2-3 tax years.

The Beaver King

6,095 posts

194 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
So what happens when the government eventually catches on and it looks like they are already and starts taxing these cars accordingly? They have to make up the shortfall from lost tax revenue somewhere after-all. Just concentrating on BiK seems quite short sighted if that's the aim as they can pretty much change the rules at will.
They lay out the BiK rates 3 (possibly 4?) years in advance, so I know what I'm paying.

Even then; are they really going to make PHEV a higher rate of tax than diesel or petrol...?

By the time the government catches on, I'll be due another company car and there will be another loophole.

Soov535

35,829 posts

270 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
The Beaver King said:
Guvernator said:
So what happens when the government eventually catches on and it looks like they are already and starts taxing these cars accordingly? They have to make up the shortfall from lost tax revenue somewhere after-all. Just concentrating on BiK seems quite short sighted if that's the aim as they can pretty much change the rules at will.
They lay out the BiK rates 3 (possibly 4?) years in advance, so I know what I'm paying.

Even then; are they really going to make PHEV a higher rate of tax than diesel or petrol...?

By the time the government catches on, I'll be due another company car and there will be another loophole.
Ditto - it's going up a bit, but still be less than £150 a month for a 330e plus unlimited petrol.


300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
spmaidment said:
Its in ECO.. with sensible driving... so really it is a heavy 2.0L. Should I get better than 20-25MPG? If so is it worth taking into BMW?

The carport is 25 meters from my outside socket. I do have a 25m lead, but its annoying running the cable out all the time otherwise I would charge it more often!
I suppose the reality is. Maybe you bought the wrong car for the job at hand.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
I find it very weird that it doesn't charge the battery at all, really what is the point of that apart from gaming the NEDC test as someone mentioned above? Surely the Prius method is a much better hybrid solution? Is this the same for most of the new German plug-in hybrids?

Also will the new emissions tests that are now being proposed basically make cars like this obsolete? I can't see these type of cars fairing too well if the tests actually manage to measure real world conditions in some way.
I don't know much about the BMW ev's/hybrids. But to pick up this point in relation to the other thread.

Car makers build things to targets and standards, the aim is to sell cars and make money. Not make the world a better place.

If there is a fuel economy test that means if you run an electric motor you essentially get a certified lie on the fuel economy of your car. Of course money making companies will do this.

Likewise, if you can build a car which lands itself in a low tax category or entitled to other government incentives. And allows you sell loads of them off the back of this, then a money making organisation will jump at this opportunity.


It's these reasons alone why car makers are chasing EV technology at the moment. No other reason.

The Beaver King

6,095 posts

194 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Soov535 said:
Ditto - it's going up a bit, but still be less than £150 a month for a 330e plus unlimited petrol.
Yep, but we're still in the 0-50 g/km bracket, so there isn't even a lower band to move down to.




And people talk about "what happens when HMRC catch on and bump the tax up?"

Well they are bumping the tax up, but for all emission levels.

For example; if I still had my diesel Audi A3 (99g/km), this year it would be 19% and by 19/20 tax year it would be 26%. Compare that to the C350e (47g/km); this year I'm at 7% and by 19/20 I'm at 16%. A large increase, but I'm still getting taxed a lot less than the Audi.

I'm semi-ignoring P11D value for simpicity, but it's not going to hit PHEV owners that hard.

Edited by The Beaver King on Tuesday 6th December 16:16

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
The Beaver King said:
I've mentioned it in my comment above, but the German PHEV all have regenerative braking. That said, you'll only recover maybe 10% of the battery capacity on a journey; it just isn't a huge amount of energy.

You also need to bear in mind that the Prius etc only use battery up to 20-30 mph; the PHEVs will run solely on battery upto 80 mph for 15-20 miles. Absolutely brilliant for me as I can 75% of my commute on battery and the remainder is done at 70 mph on the motorway.

I'm easily getting over 99 mpg each morning. The downside is long distance; anything over 50 miles sees my mpg drop to circa 40 mpg. I've driven from Birmingham to Newcastle and back again and my mpg over the whole trip was 37 mpg. No brilliant, but hardly horrific. Journeys like that for me are a once every few month occurance.

TLDR; great for short commutes, not great for long distance. Dirty cheap BiK.

Eutopia is company car with inclusive fuel car. The tax is disgustingly low for a 280 bhp Mercedes....
That does sound better although it's a shame it doesn't do so well at long distance, surely that's just a matter of programming it better? Add a switchable long distance cruise mode so it uses the battery sparingly but for longer. Not sure what the Prius does but I'm pretty sure the mpg doesn't just drop off after 50 miles, the Prius one just seems to be slightly better thought out in that regard.
Something I don't know, but would like too. Related to this.

How much is the battery cost from BMW? Either to buy or to rent? (I don't know what they offer). This cost should be factored into any mpg calculations.

Do lease deals cater for this vs private purchase?

And I know the electricity cost itself is low, but it is still a cost. And usually ignored in such running/mpg costs.

Not sure I fully understand the Nissan site, but the battery cost for a Leaf £90-£113 month with a somewhat low mileage cap (I assume costs beyond this mileage are crazy).

So when people say they cost 37mpg... over what distance and how much cost vs the cost of the batteries.

The Beaver King

6,095 posts

194 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Something I don't know, but would like too. Related to this.

How much is the battery cost from BMW? Either to buy or to rent? (I don't know what they offer). This cost should be factored into any mpg calculations.

Do lease deals cater for this vs private purchase?

And I know the electricity cost itself is low, but it is still a cost. And usually ignored in such running/mpg costs.

Not sure I fully understand the Nissan site, but the battery cost for a Leaf £90-£113 month with a somewhat low mileage cap (I assume costs beyond this mileage are crazy).

So when people say they cost 37mpg... over what distance and how much cost vs the cost of the batteries.
You're thinking of pure EV cars; PHEV has the battery built in and isn't rented or leased. It is factored into the cost of the car, hence why most PHEV cars are circa £40-50k. It would be like factoring in the cost of the battery for a normal car.

In terms of charging cost, I charge mine of a normal 3-pin socket and it equates to about £1 per charge, with a single charge getting me circa 15 miles (depending on conditions). I worked out that it costs me about £3 a day to commute to work vs £4 for a 50mpg diesel; factor in BiK savings and you work out to be £100 to £300 odd quid a month better off (depending on tax rate and fuel card) for a much nicer car.

Carfield

296 posts

170 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
S11Steve said:
This... I have an Outlander PHEV, and a 26 mile commute. When it's charged daily, my weekly MPG is around 300. When it's not being charged I get 25-30mpg typically, or 45mpg on a long run keeping it just under 70mph. Averaging just over 70mph will have a significant impact on the economy - 18-20mpg typically.

Suits me fine, and the low BIK for a large practical car is a big draw.
An Outlander PHEV sitting on it's limiter (175 kph, on the autobahn of course) heads down to near single figures mpg. When you have a 6 gallon tank, this is an issue crossing Germany unless you're really fond of petrol stations or don't mind mixing it with the trucks in the inside lane.

Avoidable situations aside, yes - an uncharged Outlander has roughly the fuel consumption of any other 2 ton petrol SUV with similar performance. Any advantage from regenerative braking etc is neatly offset by the additional weight. I would imagine that an uncharged 330e would do slightly worse than a 328i (or whatever the most powerful 4 cylinder is called this week). In any event, the reduction in lease / BIK costs probably still makes it worthwhile.

shep1001

4,599 posts

188 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
[quote=Soov535]


7% BIK.

The end.

As a higher rate taxpayer the car will cost me £135 a month including unlimited Super Unleaded!



BIK goes up quite considerably over the next few years, after next yer, so its getting less attractive (whilst still cheaper admittedly) to have PEHV type vehicles.

Soov535

35,829 posts

270 months

Monday 12th December 2016
quotequote all
But it's in the lowest band so short of a bike you can't get cheaper!!


CraigyMc

16,326 posts

235 months

Monday 12th December 2016
quotequote all
Soov535 said:
But it's in the lowest band so short of a bike you can't get cheaper!!
Isn't there a "cars of high value" thing in the tax system next year too?

Cars over £40K list cost more for the first 5 years - £310 a year for £1550 total over the five.

T16OLE

2,944 posts

190 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
gweaver said:
CraigyMc said:
gweaver said:
The Beaver King said:
It's only a hybrid if you charge it....
Is that true though?
Do these new-fangled German hybrids not have regenerative braking, like the old school Japanese ones?
The 330e aims to have a flat hybrid battery by the end of the journey (it looks at your satnav destination) in order to use as little fuel as possible.

It's a plug-in hybrid, not a prius.
So it would appear that it has an alternator-generator, electric motor and a small battery, but no regenerative braking?

If the battery is flat, there's no real regen, and it weighs 1735kg (according to Autocar), it's hardly surprising that the fuel consumption is terrible around town.

Being cynical, it would seem that this car was developed purely to game the NEDC tests. The two environmental benefits are that:
a) some of the pollution will be moved from city centres to power stations
b) more of these means less diesels (less pollution again)
I'm all for he concept of Hybrid's, but that fact it doesn't charge itself is a bit crap