FWD or RWD?

[DoubleD]

aeropilot said:

DoubleD said:

aeropilot said:

DoubleD said:

Mr Tidy said:

Loyly said:

The driven wheels are less important than the quality of the drive overall, for me. I'll take a Megane RS over a 318i any day!

Maybe, but I'd take a BMW 130i/135i/140i over any Megane!

And miss out on a more entertaining car?

I can't think of anything remotely entertaining about any Megane (or any French car for that matter outside of a few iconic classics like a 205T16E2, Citroen DS & Traction Avant, Facel Vegas, some pre-war Delahaye's etc)

Obviously you've never driven a Megane then.....

Incorrect assumption.

And you couldn't find anything remotely entertaining about it? I drove a megane RS back to back with a M135i, the renault had far better steering feel and turn in than the BMW. But the BMW had a nicer engine and some nice soft touch plastics.

Fair enough I guess, we can't all enjoy the same things.

[RobM77]

DoubleD said:

aeropilot said:

DoubleD said:

aeropilot said:

DoubleD said:

Mr Tidy said:

Loyly said:

The driven wheels are less important than the quality of the drive overall, for me. I'll take a Megane RS over a 318i any day!

Maybe, but I'd take a BMW 130i/135i/140i over any Megane!

And miss out on a more entertaining car?

I can't think of anything remotely entertaining about any Megane (or any French car for that matter outside of a few iconic classics like a 205T16E2, Citroen DS & Traction Avant, Facel Vegas, some pre-war Delahaye's etc)

Obviously you've never driven a Megane then.....

Incorrect assumption.

And you couldn't find anything remotely entertaining about it? I drove a megane RS back to back with a M135i, the renault had far better steering feel and turn in than the BMW. But the BMW had a nicer engine and some nice soft touch plastics.

Fair enough I guess, we can't all enjoy the same things.

It depends on taste. I'm a huge fan of hot hatches, particularly French ones, and can really see the appeal. However, since I first drove RWD many years ago I wouldn't go back to FWD for a daily driver. I doubt I'll ever own another FWD car to be honest, although I'm open to racing one if the opportunity arises.

[SuperchargedVR6]

Loyly said:

The driven wheels are less important than the quality of the drive overall, for me.

By far the most sensible post in this thread!

The problem with this debate is bias.

Most FWD fan boys would probably acknowledge a good RWD or 4WD chassis. They may not want to own one, but they'd tip their hat in respect.

Most RWD fan boys on the other hand, are way too biased to have a reasoned debate with.

Best RWD I've driven to date - E39 M5.
Best FWD I've driven to date - Integra DC5
Best 4WD I've driven to date - Evo 9 FQ360

For me they all represent the best of their respective drivetrain layouts and you can really feel the difference, which is what it's all about.

As said previously, a 520d. So what. Who cares what wheels are driven in a taxi. Same with a Golf, same with a Haldex 4WD.

If someone new to RWD started with a 520d, it would lead to massive disappointment.

So I think the school of drivetrains should begin with lessons in those 3 yardsticks!

[lostkiwi]

I have 3 x RWD cars. My wife has a FWD car.
Nuff said.

[RobM77]

SuperchargedVR6 said:

Loyly said:

The driven wheels are less important than the quality of the drive overall, for me.

By far the most sensible post in this thread!

The problem with this debate is bias.

Most FWD fan boys would probably acknowledge a good RWD or 4WD chassis. They may not want to own one, but they'd tip their hat in respect.

Most RWD fan boys on the other hand, are way too biased to have a reasoned debate with.

Best RWD I've driven to date - E39 M5.
Best FWD I've driven to date - Integra DC5
Best 4WD I've driven to date - Evo 9 FQ360

For me they all represent the best of their respective drivetrain layouts and you can really feel the difference, which is what it's all about.

As said previously, a 520d. So what. Who cares what wheels are driven in a taxi. Same with a Golf, same with a Haldex 4WD.

If someone new to RWD started with a 520d, it would lead to massive disappointment.

So I think the school of drivetrains should begin with lessons in those 3 yardsticks!

I'm outside of your 'most RWD' people, because whilst I'm pretty exclusively RWD, I do love a good FWD or 4WD car (and have owned and enjoyed them in the past), but I think it's wrong to link power to how good a chassis can be by quoting the 520d. The MX5 or MR2 are still beautiful RWD experiences without much power, and so is a well sorted 1, 3 or 5 series. I drove a 116d M Sport with my wife when she changed her car last and it was a really lovely thing to thread down our local twisty B road. The 520d M Sport likewise is a really nice RWD experience. Not an Elise or a Caterham, no, but a good RWD chassis for a normal car.

[aeropilot]

DoubleD said:

aeropilot said:

DoubleD said:

aeropilot said:

DoubleD said:

Mr Tidy said:

Loyly said:

The driven wheels are less important than the quality of the drive overall, for me. I'll take a Megane RS over a 318i any day!

Maybe, but I'd take a BMW 130i/135i/140i over any Megane!

And miss out on a more entertaining car?

I can't think of anything remotely entertaining about any Megane (or any French car for that matter outside of a few iconic classics like a 205T16E2, Citroen DS & Traction Avant, Facel Vegas, some pre-war Delahaye's etc)

Obviously you've never driven a Megane then.....

Incorrect assumption.

And you couldn't find anything remotely entertaining about it?

Not really.
I'm not saying its crap as a package, but just that package just doesn't tick any boxes for me.

[Kawasicki]

SuperchargedVR6 said:

As said previously, a 520d. So what. Who cares what wheels are driven in a taxi. Same with a Golf, same with a Haldex 4WD.

If someone new to RWD started with a 520d, it would lead to massive disappointment.

Why would somebody be disappointed with a 520d? Too much oversteer? There is a throttle pedal you know. You don't have to use all the power!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5EgJBcwuQ0

[RobM77]

Kawasicki said:

SuperchargedVR6 said:

As said previously, a 520d. So what. Who cares what wheels are driven in a taxi. Same with a Golf, same with a Haldex 4WD.

If someone new to RWD started with a 520d, it would lead to massive disappointment.

Why would somebody be disappointed with a 520d? Too much oversteer? There is a throttle pedal you know. You don't have to use all the power!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5EgJBcwuQ0

and even if you don't do that, you've still got the balance. Even if you're driving a 540i on a race track, you won't be using more than the 520d's maximum power and torque in a corner (unless you're being a hooligan). The extra power of the faster models is for straights - handling in the slower models is the same, if not slightly better due to the lighter engines.

[SWoll]

Kawasicki said:

SuperchargedVR6 said:

As said previously, a 520d. So what. Who cares what wheels are driven in a taxi. Same with a Golf, same with a Haldex 4WD.

If someone new to RWD started with a 520d, it would lead to massive disappointment.

Why would somebody be disappointed with a 520d? Too much oversteer? There is a throttle pedal you know. You don't have to use all the power!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5EgJBcwuQ0

Having just stepped out of a 520D I can confirm it's still quite obvious which wheels are driven, especially at this time of year. I agree that I'm not sure it matters much day to day in the grand scheme of things though. My next company car will be a FWD A6 Avant, but as it's primary purpose will be day to day A-Roads and M-Way runs I'm not too fussed. Came with the most kit, very practical and looks nice were the main priorities rather than any sort of driver involvement.

Having owned and driven decent examples of all of the layouts at some point (205 GTi, Focus RS MK1, Integra Type-R, Impreza Turbo, Evo 7, E46 330i, 996 C2) I personally found that I lost interest in FWD fairly quickly as seemed a bit 1-dimensional when pushing on and obviously compromised with any decent amount of power to deploy. 4WD has it's place and is probably the perfect layout for 90% of driving circumstances but when it comes down to it there is a reason why the vast majority of performance cars are RWD. It just offers more of a challenge and therefore the rewards are greater.

Now looking for a toy to add to the garage, with a Tuscan being high on the list.

[jamieduff1981]

SWoll said:

Now looking for a toy to add to the garage, with a Tuscan being high on the list.

I don't have much Tuscsn footage but:
https://youtu.be/65YPLnzmJyQ

[e21Mark]

As others have already said, I think age plays a part. I grew up and learnt to drive where RWD was the norm. My first car though, a 1959 Mini Minor 850, was great fun but probably taught me more about maintaining momentum that dealing with under or oversteer? My next car was a MK3 Cortina and I can remember fishtailing up a wet road and trying my utmost to keep my foot in, whilst desperately flailing my arms in an effort to bring it under control. There were a couple more old Fords and eventually I got my first BMW, a ropey bright green 1502. I loved that car. Since then I have always had a BMW of some kind, although usually a 70's, 80's or early 90's model. I don't much like modern cars. I'm not keen on the styling but I also don't like how heavy and large they have become. My preference is for light, RWD saloon cars. Hence the 2 I own now. They do everything I want from a car and then some.

I did have a brief spell with FWD ownership, in the shape of Renault 5 Gordini Turbo's (or Alpine as the LHD version were badged) but awful torque steer and massive oversteer on cold rubber meant they didn't stay for long. I also had a 1380 Mini but that went bang. I also looked like that chap off the Simpsons, with his knees out the door windows.

I just don't like diesel cars. In my youth they just weren't something I or my mates would ever have considered. My opinions never changed.

M3




318is

[SidewaysSi]

culpz said:

SidewaysSi said:

I recently had to decide whether to modify my E36 328 or buy a Megane. Stuck with the BMW as I know it will be the more fun and focused car.

But that's just your interpretation and definition of fun, which are different things to different people. Two completely different car set-ups but i'm sure fun can he had out of both of them.

The Megane is also deemed to be very fun and focused within it's own right.

Edited by culpz on Thursday 8th December 13:24

Of course it is. I ran a DC2 as a daily for many years which is probably far more focused than the RS.

I love a good FWD like most people but IMO a properly set up and engineered RWD car has a broader spread of abilities.

[anonymous-user]

I have been lucky enough to own some decent handling cars, both FWD and RWD. Many more miles in FWD but being totally honest I think RWD is more engaging if we are discussing a half decent setup on both. Far more to learn and understand, certainly gives another element to driving, for me anyway.

The DC2 as an example was great, the turn in was absolutely heroic and lift off oversteer was easy to induce. It felt brilliant, but it did have those moments in really tricky conditions that all FWD cars do (although masked by the LSD and comparative lack of torque). I am no drift king but I enjoy the drive from rear wheels. Harder to master, I am nowhere near, but more rewarding overall.

[99dndd]

It all depends what you're after really. A RWD/4WD drive car will have a big transmission tunnel for the driveshaft, which reduces rear footwell space if you've 3 in the back.

[Kawasicki]

99dndd said:

It all depends what you're after really. A RWD/4WD drive car will have a big transmission tunnel for the driveshaft, which reduces rear footwell space if you've 3 in the back.

Many common cars now come with a 4WD option, and they have the same transmission tunnel intrusion whether you choose the fwd or awd version.

[jen-apex]

Out of FWD vs RWD: RWD any day.
Drove FWD for 6 months after passing my test, bought an MX5 and now I've only driven RWD ever since and don't plan on going back.

[HJMS123]

Granfondo said:

Glad it's not just me who found that hilarious

[STILLJOE]

I prefer rwd, as someone else said earlier I'd actually take an inferior rwd car over fwd given a choice. Need something to just ferry me back and forth to work though so fwd it is (kids and motorbikes stop me being able to justify a rwd toy as well). This is entirely personal choice though - most of the rwd cars I've owned have been lemons.

[anonymous-user]

kambites said:

Have you actually driven anything created by Renault Sport? I find it hard to understand how anyone who has any interest in driving could fail to see the appeal. Despite being a huge fan of RWD inherently, I'd certainly take an RS Meganne over any 1-series with the possible exception of the 1M and I'm not even sure about that.

I wouldn't. A few quid here and there and the 1 Series is hugely enjoyable as a road car.

[Patrick Bateman]

TurboHatchback said:

The Clio V6 is the obvious comparison. Every review raves about the handling of a the 182 but most describe the V6 as 'tricky' or words to that effect. The fuel range is terrible, the performance increase is marginal, the weight is hugely increased, the practicality is gone completely and I remember seeing lap time comparisons that showed it to be no quicker overall. It's a cool car but in every rational way it is worse than the FWD version (and yes I know it's mid-engined).

Don't get me wrong I'd rather drive the MX5 (or in my case an MR2) but I'm simply making the case that there are clear engineering reasons to pick FWD in many applications as it's simply better.

I'm not sure if people realise just how much heavier the V6 is over a 182. I'd have guessed maybe 100/150kg until I knew so I can imagine the actual difference of ~300kg makes itself known.