FWD or RWD?

Author
Discussion

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Kawasicki said:
me too, I'd love a Fiesta ST, converted to rwd!
Which brings me back to my opinion on modified cars - it'd be worse in every way and would represent a monumental waste of time and money. smile
traction off the line would be much improved. so not worse in every way.

plus, it's my fantasy garage, not yours, so have a little respect...these are my dreams you are wrecking.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
If I had a fantasy garage, which I don't, there would most definitely be a hot hatch in it. smile
Oh definitely me too. For my main car, second car or even third car though, rear drive every time.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
heebeegeetee said:
Kawasicki said:
me too, I'd love a Fiesta ST, converted to rwd!
Which brings me back to my opinion on modified cars - it'd be worse in every way and would represent a monumental waste of time and money. smile
traction off the line would be much improved. so not worse in every way.

plus, it's my fantasy garage, not yours, so have a little respect...these are my dreams you are wrecking.
The reason the Fiesta is FWD is that it's cheaper and gives more interior space. So if you ditched those two requirements, you'd end up with better weight distribution, leading to vastly better cornering balance; more traction off the line; and for many people a much nicer driving experience. It would in effect be a 1 series and you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.

Fastdruid

8,623 posts

151 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
Kawasicki said:
heebeegeetee said:
Kawasicki said:
me too, I'd love a Fiesta ST, converted to rwd!
Which brings me back to my opinion on modified cars - it'd be worse in every way and would represent a monumental waste of time and money. smile
traction off the line would be much improved. so not worse in every way.

plus, it's my fantasy garage, not yours, so have a little respect...these are my dreams you are wrecking.
The reason the Fiesta is FWD is that it's cheaper and gives more interior space. So if you ditched those two requirements, you'd end up with better weight distribution, leading to vastly better cornering balance; more traction off the line; and for many people a much nicer driving experience. It would in effect be a 1 series and you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
You keep on about weight distribution but you are wrong.

The Fiesta ST has near perfect weight distribution FOR A FWD CAR.




Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Fastdruid said:
You keep on about weight distribution but you are wrong.

The Fiesta ST has near perfect weight distribution FOR A FWD CAR.
would it not be better with 5% more weight on the driven wheels?

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
The reason the Fiesta is FWD is that it's cheaper and gives more interior space. So if you ditched those two requirements, you'd end up with better weight distribution, leading to vastly better cornering balance; more traction off the line; and for many people a much nicer driving experience. It would in effect be a 1 series and you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
Well that makes What Car crackers then!

Patrick Bateman

12,143 posts

173 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Handling is the Fiesta's game, like the best hot hatches, is it not? So why would you have to be crackers to think it handles better than a 1 series? I recall some criticism of even the M135i's handling at extremes, albeit being fussy and yet the ST is universally lauded.

Edited by Patrick Bateman on Friday 9th December 19:13

Ahbefive

11,657 posts

171 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
Surely not serious? A fiesta ST handles much better than a 1series.

You'd have to be out of your mind to think the contrary, which it is apparent you are.

e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Kawasicki said:
me too, I'd love a Fiesta ST, converted to rwd!
Which brings me back to my opinion on modified cars - it'd be worse in every way and would represent a monumental waste of time and money. smile
As I recall Gartrac didn't think so. wink

cerb4.5lee

30,191 posts

179 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Ahbefive said:
RobM77 said:
you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
Surely not serious? A fiesta ST handles much better than a 1series.

You'd have to be out of your mind to think the contrary, which it is apparent you are.
All the Autocar reviews I've read criticised the 1 series for its handling and they don't rate it at all as a package.

They wax lyrical about the Fiesta ST though in terms of handling and as a package.

The 1 series has been flawed from the outset, I've nothing at all against the 1 series and really like both the 130i and 135i but BMW didn't get it right.

Fastdruid

8,623 posts

151 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
Fastdruid said:
You keep on about weight distribution but you are wrong.

The Fiesta ST has near perfect weight distribution FOR A FWD CAR.
would it not be better with 5% more weight on the driven wheels?
No. "Ideal" is about 60:40 front:rear for a FWD and the Fiesta ST is 61:39 so it's arguably still nose heavier than idea..

That's "ideal" because like everything it's a compromise. Just like 50:50 is only really ideal for constant cornering. Ideal really for a RWD would be with a more rearwards bias. Even then it's not that straightforward because it's all to do with where the CoG is, the roll centres, the tyres and a bunch of other stuff. In short 50:50 is a very good starting point but it's not the be all and end all and does not by itself make a car "balanced".

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Fastdruid said:
RobM77 said:
Kawasicki said:
heebeegeetee said:
Kawasicki said:
me too, I'd love a Fiesta ST, converted to rwd!
Which brings me back to my opinion on modified cars - it'd be worse in every way and would represent a monumental waste of time and money. smile
traction off the line would be much improved. so not worse in every way.

plus, it's my fantasy garage, not yours, so have a little respect...these are my dreams you are wrecking.
The reason the Fiesta is FWD is that it's cheaper and gives more interior space. So if you ditched those two requirements, you'd end up with better weight distribution, leading to vastly better cornering balance; more traction off the line; and for many people a much nicer driving experience. It would in effect be a 1 series and you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
You keep on about weight distribution but you are wrong.

The Fiesta ST has near perfect weight distribution FOR A FWD CAR.
In a straight line, yes, but not in a corner, where you want balance. A FWD car has everything slung out over the front wheels; it's completely unbalanced. A good car for shopping etc, but it obviously wasn't build with handling in mind; that obviously goes for any FWD hatchback.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Ahbefive said:
RobM77 said:
you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
Surely not serious? A fiesta ST handles much better than a 1series.

You'd have to be out of your mind to think the contrary, which it is apparent you are.
rofl

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Fastdruid said:
Kawasicki said:
Fastdruid said:
You keep on about weight distribution but you are wrong.

The Fiesta ST has near perfect weight distribution FOR A FWD CAR.
would it not be better with 5% more weight on the driven wheels?
No. "Ideal" is about 60:40 front:rear for a FWD and the Fiesta ST is 61:39 so it's arguably still nose heavier than idea..

That's "ideal" because like everything it's a compromise. Just like 50:50 is only really ideal for constant cornering. Ideal really for a RWD would be with a more rearwards bias. Even then it's not that straightforward because it's all to do with where the CoG is, the roll centres, the tyres and a bunch of other stuff. In short 50:50 is a very good starting point but it's not the be all and end all and does not by itself make a car "balanced".
but if the fiesta was heavier on the front axle it would have more traction?

and rearward weight bias is great for lap times, but poor for straight line stability..which is probably more important for most drivers.


Fastdruid

8,623 posts

151 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
Fastdruid said:
RobM77 said:
Kawasicki said:
heebeegeetee said:
Kawasicki said:
me too, I'd love a Fiesta ST, converted to rwd!
Which brings me back to my opinion on modified cars - it'd be worse in every way and would represent a monumental waste of time and money. smile
traction off the line would be much improved. so not worse in every way.

plus, it's my fantasy garage, not yours, so have a little respect...these are my dreams you are wrecking.
The reason the Fiesta is FWD is that it's cheaper and gives more interior space. So if you ditched those two requirements, you'd end up with better weight distribution, leading to vastly better cornering balance; more traction off the line; and for many people a much nicer driving experience. It would in effect be a 1 series and you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
You keep on about weight distribution but you are wrong.

The Fiesta ST has near perfect weight distribution FOR A FWD CAR.
In a straight line, yes, but not in a corner, where you want balance. A FWD car has everything slung out over the front wheels; it's completely unbalanced. A good car for shopping etc, but it obviously wasn't build with handling in mind; that obviously goes for any FWD hatchback.
At *one* point in the corner.

Equally yours which is designed to trawl the motorway on the way to make the next sale is just as compromised. Obviously ideal for the rep up and down the motorway all day but wasn't despite the marketing built only with handing in mind.

Balance is about the geometry, the suspension and the tyres. Weight distribution plays a part but it is not the be all and end all that you make it out to be.




Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Fastdruid said:
At *one* point in the corner.

Equally yours which is designed to trawl the motorway on the way to make the next sale is just as compromised. Obviously ideal for the rep up and down the motorway all day but wasn't despite the marketing built only with handing in mind.

Balance is about the geometry, the suspension and the tyres. Weight distribution plays a part but it is not the be all and end all that you make it out to be.
that is the beauty of rwd, it is not just at one point in the corner, under power the car can de driven in a balanced manner the whole way out of the corner. fwd cars on the other hand just tend to understeer more under power.

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
Fastdruid said:
At *one* point in the corner.

Equally yours which is designed to trawl the motorway on the way to make the next sale is just as compromised. Obviously ideal for the rep up and down the motorway all day but wasn't despite the marketing built only with handing in mind.

Balance is about the geometry, the suspension and the tyres. Weight distribution plays a part but it is not the be all and end all that you make it out to be.
that is the beauty of rwd, it is not just at one point in the corner, under power the car can de driven in a balanced manner the whole way out of the corner. fwd cars on the other hand just tend to understeer more under power.
I've driven 1 and 3 series that both under steered more than a Megane when under power.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
Fastdruid said:
RobM77 said:
Fastdruid said:
RobM77 said:
Kawasicki said:
heebeegeetee said:
Kawasicki said:
me too, I'd love a Fiesta ST, converted to rwd!
Which brings me back to my opinion on modified cars - it'd be worse in every way and would represent a monumental waste of time and money. smile
traction off the line would be much improved. so not worse in every way.

plus, it's my fantasy garage, not yours, so have a little respect...these are my dreams you are wrecking.
The reason the Fiesta is FWD is that it's cheaper and gives more interior space. So if you ditched those two requirements, you'd end up with better weight distribution, leading to vastly better cornering balance; more traction off the line; and for many people a much nicer driving experience. It would in effect be a 1 series and you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
You keep on about weight distribution but you are wrong.

The Fiesta ST has near perfect weight distribution FOR A FWD CAR.
In a straight line, yes, but not in a corner, where you want balance. A FWD car has everything slung out over the front wheels; it's completely unbalanced. A good car for shopping etc, but it obviously wasn't build with handling in mind; that obviously goes for any FWD hatchback.
At *one* point in the corner.

Equally yours which is designed to trawl the motorway on the way to make the next sale is just as compromised. Obviously ideal for the rep up and down the motorway all day but wasn't despite the marketing built only with handing in mind.

Balance is about the geometry, the suspension and the tyres. Weight distribution plays a part but it is not the be all and end all that you make it out to be.
No, balance is just balance. Handling is influenced by how you set up the elements you've listed, but then of course you run into a whole load of compromises and unusual tricks to get a FWD platform to work properly. Incidentally, you talk about the right balance for a FWD car, but surely the more you accelerate the less traction you get, so you're always fighting a losing battle? With RWD the more you accelerate the more traction it delivers.

e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 9th December 2016
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
I've driven 1 and 3 series that both under steered more than a Megane when under power.
when you get on the power in a rwd car it understeers less
do the same with a fwd it understeers more

the amount of understeer can be tuned, but the physics itself is constant