Discussion
RobM77 said:
In a straight line, yes, but not in a corner, where you want balance. A FWD car has everything slung out over the front wheels; it's completely unbalanced. A good car for shopping etc, but it obviously wasn't build with handling in mind; that obviously goes for any FWD hatchback.
This is PH at its best. Funnily enough my friend, who has owned an M135i for 4 months is now selling, due to, and I quote 'stupid grip when the road is even slightly damp.' And he's more of a car nut than me. I think there are probably a lot of people in this thread who haven't driven a fair representation of FWD, 4WD and RWD cars. There are excellent examples of all three and terrible examples of all three.
I don't understand why people are under the impression all RWD cars tend towards oversteer when accelerating. Granted, if I was to lose grip to the driven wheels of a RWD car, it would probably oversteer, whereas in a FWD car it would understeer, but that doesn't mean up to the grip limit both formats do that. For example, in my E46 330i Touring, when accelerating out of a tight bend, it most definitely understeers. I think it doesn't have enough power to upset the rear tyres, combined with weight transfer off the front end mean it just wants to go straight. Didn't both James May and Clarkson say their predominant memory of the Atom was understeer?
I don't understand why people are under the impression all RWD cars tend towards oversteer when accelerating. Granted, if I was to lose grip to the driven wheels of a RWD car, it would probably oversteer, whereas in a FWD car it would understeer, but that doesn't mean up to the grip limit both formats do that. For example, in my E46 330i Touring, when accelerating out of a tight bend, it most definitely understeers. I think it doesn't have enough power to upset the rear tyres, combined with weight transfer off the front end mean it just wants to go straight. Didn't both James May and Clarkson say their predominant memory of the Atom was understeer?
I also feel many think that RWD automatically gives you great steering feel, "uncorrupted" is a phrase I see being used frequently, whereas FWD will always be as numb as the dentists. Far from the truth, with even modern (post-E36) BMWs being nothing particularly special in this regard. They might have quicker steering racks than previous models, but that doesn't translate into being a great communicator IME
SuperVM said:
I think there are probably a lot of people in this thread who haven't driven a fair representation of FWD, 4WD and RWD cars. There are excellent examples of all three and terrible examples of all three.
I don't understand why people are under the impression all RWD cars tend towards oversteer when accelerating. Granted, if I was to lose grip to the driven wheels of a RWD car, it would probably oversteer, whereas in a FWD car it would understeer, but that doesn't mean up to the grip limit both formats do that. For example, in my E46 330i Touring, when accelerating out of a tight bend, it most definitely understeers. I think it doesn't have enough power to upset the rear tyres, combined with weight transfer off the front end mean it just wants to go straight. Didn't both James May and Clarkson say their predominant memory of the Atom was understeer?
Even a 316i will oversteer when you accelerate if the rear tyres are already using all of their grip potential. A Dodge Viper will understeer when accelerating if the front tyres were already using all of their grip potential. I don't understand why people are under the impression all RWD cars tend towards oversteer when accelerating. Granted, if I was to lose grip to the driven wheels of a RWD car, it would probably oversteer, whereas in a FWD car it would understeer, but that doesn't mean up to the grip limit both formats do that. For example, in my E46 330i Touring, when accelerating out of a tight bend, it most definitely understeers. I think it doesn't have enough power to upset the rear tyres, combined with weight transfer off the front end mean it just wants to go straight. Didn't both James May and Clarkson say their predominant memory of the Atom was understeer?
Leins said:
I also feel many think that RWD automatically gives you great steering feel, "uncorrupted" is a phrase I see being used frequently, whereas FWD will always be as numb as the dentists. Far from the truth, with even modern (post-E36) BMWs being nothing particularly special in this regard. They might have quicker steering racks than previous models, but that doesn't translate into being a great communicator IME
TrueAdd electric steering and problem compounded.
A rwd drive car also puts more weight at the rear to help balance and that certainly helps the butt feel.
jezhumphrey75 said:
Can anyone explain the fun side of a rwd car? I've never owned one but driven a few mainly a few diesel bmws, I don't see what's so fun about them driving to work,Tesco etc etc, are they really much better? Or is I the drift thing? People thinking they can drive? Genuine question.
BMs are set up safe, and thesedays they're heavy too, so fun is less on the agenda.Earlier part of thread handled this well. You don't have to drift a good rwd to feel the balance and rotation. Throttle adjustment mid corner feels good when the car facilitates it and you're used to the car. Not drifting tho, that's not the only point of rwd. Fun comes in different forms and fwd can be fun too.
Kawasicki said:
SuperVM said:
I think there are probably a lot of people in this thread who haven't driven a fair representation of FWD, 4WD and RWD cars. There are excellent examples of all three and terrible examples of all three.
I don't understand why people are under the impression all RWD cars tend towards oversteer when accelerating. Granted, if I was to lose grip to the driven wheels of a RWD car, it would probably oversteer, whereas in a FWD car it would understeer, but that doesn't mean up to the grip limit both formats do that. For example, in my E46 330i Touring, when accelerating out of a tight bend, it most definitely understeers. I think it doesn't have enough power to upset the rear tyres, combined with weight transfer off the front end mean it just wants to go straight. Didn't both James May and Clarkson say their predominant memory of the Atom was understeer?
Even a 316i will oversteer when you accelerate if the rear tyres are already using all of their grip potential. A Dodge Viper will understeer when accelerating if the front tyres were already using all of their grip potential. I don't understand why people are under the impression all RWD cars tend towards oversteer when accelerating. Granted, if I was to lose grip to the driven wheels of a RWD car, it would probably oversteer, whereas in a FWD car it would understeer, but that doesn't mean up to the grip limit both formats do that. For example, in my E46 330i Touring, when accelerating out of a tight bend, it most definitely understeers. I think it doesn't have enough power to upset the rear tyres, combined with weight transfer off the front end mean it just wants to go straight. Didn't both James May and Clarkson say their predominant memory of the Atom was understeer?
Jonno02 said:
This is PH at its best. Funnily enough my friend, who has owned an M135i for 4 months is now selling, due to, and I quote 'stupid grip when the road is even slightly damp.' And he's more of a car nut than me.
How is he driving it? Is he flooring it everywhere in Sport+?I have had an M135i for two years, and while it can be a bit of a handful in midwinter on Supersports when I am visiting my parents in Scotland (though no worse than the E46 318i on P6000s I had a decade ago), I have never had much of a problem in the wet.
culpz said:
RobM77 said:
Ahbefive said:
RobM77 said:
you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
Surely not serious? A fiesta ST handles much better than a 1series. You'd have to be out of your mind to think the contrary, which it is apparent you are.
The Fiesta, even in base form, is a fantastic handling car. The fact that it's FWD doesn't really hinder the experience
There are many RWD cars out there that are pretty terrible while others are fantastic. The same goes with FWD.
jezhumphrey75 said:
Can anyone explain the fun side of a rwd car? I've never owned one but driven a few mainly a few diesel bmws, I don't see what's so fun about them driving to work,Tesco etc etc, are they really much better? Or is I the drift thing? People thinking they can drive? Genuine question.
That 1 day every 2 years when it snows and you go out early with your young kids to find a deserted car park........jezhumphrey75 said:
Can anyone explain the fun side of a rwd car? I've never owned one but driven a few mainly a few diesel bmws, I don't see what's so fun about them driving to work,Tesco etc etc, are they really much better? Or is I the drift thing? People thinking they can drive? Genuine question.
For me it's the fact that a RWD car will tend towards being balanced when accelerating out of a corner, whereas a FWD car will always tend towards understeer (which I find incredibly boring).CABC said:
You don't have to drift a good rwd to feel the balance and rotation. Throttle adjustment mid corner feels good when the car facilitates it and you're used to the car. Not drifting tho, that's not the only point of rwd. Fun comes in different forms and fwd can be fun too.
Indeed - that's one of the thing I came to like about RWD cars, however, in my old Z4 Coupe, I found it had too much grip to make fine adjustments to cornering angle, which dulled things somewhat. In fact, I think you would have to be very nuanced about the differences to even tell it was RWD... unlike my old MX5s where it was so easy to adjust the cornering angle probably because it has much less grip and communicates much more clearly. OK fair enough you could turn all of the TCS off and boot it out of a junction or round a hairpin bend but how often do you get to do that?I actually think a modern BMW is not the best car with which to appreciate RWD handling due to the surplus of grip and simply how safely they've been engineered; I'm certainly looking forward to jumping into a little lightweight RWD car with skinny(ish) tyres again.
heebeegeetee said:
Debaser said:
For me it's the fact that a RWD car will tend towards being balanced when accelerating out of a corner, whereas a FWD car will always tend towards understeer (which I find incredibly boring).
In my opinion, that's just not a fact. Very far from it, imo.DaveCWK said:
Topics been done to death & will never be resolved so I'll quote Clarkson instead:
”the front wheels do the steering & the rear the propulsion. That's a nice balance"
Says the man that nowadays drives a Golf GTi (and is very happy with it) - maybe it's not as important as everyone is making it out to be.”the front wheels do the steering & the rear the propulsion. That's a nice balance"
Ahbefive said:
culpz said:
RobM77 said:
Ahbefive said:
RobM77 said:
you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
Surely not serious? A fiesta ST handles much better than a 1series. You'd have to be out of your mind to think the contrary, which it is apparent you are.
The Fiesta, even in base form, is a fantastic handling car. The fact that it's FWD doesn't really hinder the experience
There are many RWD cars out there that are pretty terrible while others are fantastic. The same goes with FWD.
I have driven a few early 06 variants aswell as a 13 plate pre-facelift and a facelift 16 plate model, that i actually had as a hire car for a few weeks. All equally underwhelming as each other IMO.
BMW should definitely stick to the bigger saloons and coupes.
Edited by culpz on Wednesday 14th December 13:08
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff