RE: Ford Focus RS: PH Fleet
Discussion
I know what you mean about the Subarus; you're never *quite* sure whether the front end is planted and whether gas is going to give you horrible power understeer or that elusive and lovely rotation into a four-wheel drift. There's a very, very fine line between the two whereas the Focus front end is always nailed into the apex and from there you can just make tiny adjustments to the angle of attack on the throttle and it's a really, really nice feeling. I'm not talking massive angles either and I think we're in agreement there - just a sense of steer from the rear that quite often has you unwinding lock because it's turned in so aggressively! Credit to them and there's more detail on WHY this happens in our geek-out with the guy from GKN.
What tyres have worked for your Subaru? I'm just about to try some new F1 Asymmetric 3s on my Forester having liked F1s on my old Classic WRX back in the day. Common consensus has it going to a stiffer Whiteline rear ARB dials out some of that initial understeer too and I recall similar things being said in regard to Imprezas. Quite a common mod as I understand it.
Cheers,
Dan
What tyres have worked for your Subaru? I'm just about to try some new F1 Asymmetric 3s on my Forester having liked F1s on my old Classic WRX back in the day. Common consensus has it going to a stiffer Whiteline rear ARB dials out some of that initial understeer too and I recall similar things being said in regard to Imprezas. Quite a common mod as I understand it.
Cheers,
Dan
Max_Torque said:
The reason scoobs are a bit difficult to read at the limit if because the engine is in the wrong place! (high and forwards)
Ha - Scooby is the first car I've ever intentionally driven over the limit. Mainly because of snow and access to private car parks and some private roads round here. The ironic thing is I find the Scooby very predictable over the limit (with the diffs locked) - albeit this is at 20-30mph only. It is completely different trying to break the very high limits of adhesion in the dry though. Perfect Winter car, but the winter highs are never repeated in summer months (for me).Dan Trent said:
... Common consensus has it going to a stiffer Whiteline rear ARB dials out some of that initial understeer too and I recall similar things being said in regard to Imprezas. Quite a common mod as I understand it.
If you are adjusting a Subaru's roll stiffness/balance, it seems recommended to exchange the flexy plastic 'C'-shaped droplinks for something more rigid too, or the new anti-roll bar will flex them all the more. Was going to do that with my UK market '99 S Turbo but it got rear ended and totalled 27 days after I bought it to replace my '92 Legacy Turbo. It was a shame as it was a nice and characterful car, if a bit soft.Still got the new, unused drop-links I bought in preparation somewhere...
Dan Trent said:
I know what you mean about the Subarus; you're never *quite* sure whether the front end is planted and whether gas is going to give you horrible power understeer or that elusive and lovely rotation into a four-wheel drift. There's a very, very fine line between the two whereas the Focus front end is always nailed into the apex and from there you can just make tiny adjustments to the angle of attack on the throttle and it's a really, really nice feeling. I'm not talking massive angles either and I think we're in agreement there - just a sense of steer from the rear that quite often has you unwinding lock because it's turned in so aggressively! Credit to them and there's more detail on WHY this happens in our geek-out with the guy from GKN.
What tyres have worked for your Subaru? I'm just about to try some new F1 Asymmetric 3s on my Forester having liked F1s on my old Classic WRX back in the day. Common consensus has it going to a stiffer Whiteline rear ARB dials out some of that initial understeer too and I recall similar things being said in regard to Imprezas. Quite a common mod as I understand it.
Cheers,
Dan
Tyres - I've only swapped Summers once, and onto Michelin Pilot Sport 3s, and they made a big difference. I think I was being tight though and should have gone the whole hog to Super Sports.What tyres have worked for your Subaru? I'm just about to try some new F1 Asymmetric 3s on my Forester having liked F1s on my old Classic WRX back in the day. Common consensus has it going to a stiffer Whiteline rear ARB dials out some of that initial understeer too and I recall similar things being said in regard to Imprezas. Quite a common mod as I understand it.
Cheers,
Dan
GKN - I really hope you asked which is the best mode for driving in snow! The Scooby I have to lock the diffs in loose powder. I'm guessing in the RS I will just switch off TC and floor it....looking forward to the interview, I will certainly geek out!
ARBs - yes, a very common mod. Sadly I live in Switzerland (=modifying a car is close to impossible). I didn't find any ARBs homologated for the draconian rules out here. Plenty of homologated exhausts, but no re-map to go with them. This, I admit, was something I only find out after buying a Scooby... :-(
Dan Trent said:
FN2TypeR said:
PorkRind said:
Erm so wheres the info on the Twinster all-wheel drive system?
He said he'd post it soon. Last line of the review.Watch this space!
Dan
OH WAIT
Yes I went there
Robert-lhcbq said:
I just don't get this obsession with the RS's weight.
Are you saying that a 80kg passenger and some luggage in the civic type R ruins the driving experience for you as now the mass of the car isn't optimised for the damping? Are you really that good that you can notice the difference on a 8/10 B road blast?
Also of note:
2002 E46 M3, 343hp and a curb weight of 1549kg
2016 Mk3 RS, 350hp and a curb weight of 1547kg (don't know where 1599 comes from)
One is a hero, with never a mention of its weight in any review (also note, the 2002/3 autocar review of the m3 hilariously mentions that the seats are mounted too high because of the electric motors)
The other is too heavy and has seats that are too high even though you can order ones that are low and supportive and save you circa £1100!
Trent is all over the map with his opinions on the RS. Virtually everyone who drives the car (including those who have driven mine) remark on how "confidence inspiring" the car is, and how it "eggs you on". And yet Dan describes how it makes him nervous. And come on....two inches of lost boot space? Really? I'd say that's nitpicking, but it's much more than that. It's another glaring example of Dan Trent not understanding the Ford engineer's goals. And not understanding what makes so many of us love this car.Are you saying that a 80kg passenger and some luggage in the civic type R ruins the driving experience for you as now the mass of the car isn't optimised for the damping? Are you really that good that you can notice the difference on a 8/10 B road blast?
Also of note:
2002 E46 M3, 343hp and a curb weight of 1549kg
2016 Mk3 RS, 350hp and a curb weight of 1547kg (don't know where 1599 comes from)
One is a hero, with never a mention of its weight in any review (also note, the 2002/3 autocar review of the m3 hilariously mentions that the seats are mounted too high because of the electric motors)
The other is too heavy and has seats that are too high even though you can order ones that are low and supportive and save you circa £1100!
FN2TypeR said:
I just wish that you'd stop being so complimentary about the Civic over the Focus, your bias, having been given a Civic as a long termer, is clear for all to see.
OH WAIT
Yes I went there
Mr. Trent doesn't get this car. And I find that baffling. You're right about the obvious negative bias, although I'm not convinced it's just the free Civic. Watching him get picky as an old cook about the most trivial and mundane details, when he could be hooning the RS on a rally track and telling his readers what an absolute blast it is. I just don't get it. OH WAIT
Yes I went there
RocketRS said:
FN2TypeR said:
I just wish that you'd stop being so complimentary about the Civic over the Focus, your bias, having been given a Civic as a long termer, is clear for all to see.
OH WAIT
Yes I went there
Mr. Trent doesn't get this car. And I find that baffling. You're right about the obvious negative bias, although I'm not convinced it's just the free Civic. Watching him get picky as an old cook about the most trivial and mundane details, when he could be hooning the RS on a rally track and telling his readers what an absolute blast it is. I just don't get it. OH WAIT
Yes I went there
You know I didn't actually run the Civic? And called it for the Megane when I drove them back to back? Obviously there's a sack of cash under the mattress from Renault for that one, alongside the one from Honda for getting the long-term test in. And the one from Ford. Looking like a good Christmas for the kids - any moaning about boot space is down to lack of room for carrying all the swag home.Let's just look back at some of the things I've said about the Focus that underline my unremitting negativity about it...
In the original review said:
In conclusion, yes, the Focus RS is a triumph, albeit a qualified one. Everything comes at a cost and, while the oversteer antics are amusing, the hardware required to achieve them blunts the RS's edge compared with lighter, more agile rivals. For the money, for the entertainment value and all-round ability though, yes, it's the real deal. [
In a previous blog said:
Because it is pretty amazing to drive a Ford Focus on the throttle in the way you can with the RS .... certainly it exposes the more expensive Haldex-driven competition from VW, Audi and Mercedes-AMG, no matter how much technology, locking diffs or soft-touch interiors they can throw at the problem.
---
It's that unapologetic aggression I really like in this car; it's way more Evo than it is Golf R and genuinely offers something nobody else has at this or any price point. So rather than yo-yo between hype and backlash I'm enjoying taking my time to learn this car and track a steadily climbing curve of appreciation.
---
It's that unapologetic aggression I really like in this car; it's way more Evo than it is Golf R and genuinely offers something nobody else has at this or any price point. So rather than yo-yo between hype and backlash I'm enjoying taking my time to learn this car and track a steadily climbing curve of appreciation.
In this story said:
I love the way the front end is so pointy and that adding more throttle simply encourages the rotation into the corner before tracing a diagonal line out of it. We're used to hot hatches that can be adjusted by coming off the throttle. But the Focus responds to more positive applications, the more so at this time of year.
In this thread said:
You are bang on about the confidence gained by knowing the RS will rotate into the corner on the throttle and this - and the lack of understeer - do open options no other car of this type (other than perhaps some of the more aggressive Evos) have offered before. It's very accessible too, which is what I was saying about the behaviour on those roundabouts I hit on my commute.
...
I am being picky because I like the RS a lot and it lays down a formidable challenge to everything else at its price point, Subaru included. World would be a much duller place without it!
Great that you're a fan, and a passionate one at that. I also love the car and think it has genuinely moved the game on in the hot hatch market, to the extent everything that follows will have to respond in one way or another. It also rather pulls the rug out from under the Golf R which, if I may be biased for a moment, I rather enjoy!...
I am being picky because I like the RS a lot and it lays down a formidable challenge to everything else at its price point, Subaru included. World would be a much duller place without it!
It's a great car and a stand-out launch from 2016. Hate to break it to you but t's not a perfect one though and we'll continue to report back on what we both love about it and what we don't. Hopefully that's useful for those considering which of these cars - all great in their own ways - have the qualities that best suit their individual tastes and preferences. We're lucky - there aren't really any bad choices out there, just different ones.
Looking ahead I think you'll enjoy our chat with the guy from GKN explaining how they came up with the Twinster system, how Ford spotted the unique opportunities it presented to really shake up the sector and how they then worked together to make the car do what it does. Watch the vid carefully and you may *even* see me crack a smile while driving the RS...
Cheers!
Dan
Some interesting views here.
I bought a FRS after driving a lot of different cars.
Came from 10 years of modified Subarus, then a E92 M3, and finally plumped for the Focus - I even posted earlier this year asking for opinions on replacement for the M3 here, and it's really interesting to see what suggestions come back. As I'm not a badge snob, I didn't have a great problem parting with the BMW and although sometimes I miss the bigger boot and the V8 noise I haven't missed it anywhere near as much as I thought I would - if anything I still miss my Impreza a little.
I was *seriously* tempted by the new CTR, it's a great car, very well balanced with bags of grip and inspires huge confidence to push hard, great gearbox, huge boot.
The residuals and looks were a downside but what killed it for me was the bone shaking ride; just as hard and if anything worse - than my old Impreza on BC coilovers, and that was before you put it in +R mode. It ruins what could have been a huge win for Honda if they'd just made the dampers and springs more sensible for UK roads - and I would have bought one hands down over the M4, Focus, Golf R, RS3, and RS5 that I tried, it really is a hugely entertaining car to drive and had a more "old school" feel to it that modern cars.
It still has too many stupid assists in the GT pack that I'd want turned off most of the time - especially the radar that beeps at you nearly everytime you overtake, but it still has that excitement edge that's missing in today's fat, "safe", loaded with gadgetry that makes us lazy modern cars!
If I had to buy something else today, I'd probably consider another M3 v8 in manual, or an Impreza, there really isn't much else out there that interests me that's involving to drive. The Megane is OK but I think the interior would irk me on longer drives, but I've seen how quick they are round track and for a weekend car I would definitely think about one.
So why did I buy the Focus?
1. The grip is superb
2. The power delivery was very linear but with the turbo kick when you needed it, *and* you can install the FPM375 map without voiding the warranty - which incidentally PH you should drive because it makes it the car it should have been from the factory.
Honda and VW should seriously think about a warranty backed mod scheme like Ford - especially when you consider how much both are capable of with a simple stage 1 tweak.
VW especially as I felt the standard Golf map was awful and too reigned in low down, which is great for Autobahn driving, but rubbish for the UK.
If the FPM375 hadn't been available I would probably have bought the Civic.
3. The suspension is compliant without being crashy like the Honda and the Audi derivatives (even Audi with adjustable suspension was just terrible on 11/12 plate cars)
4. It's more subtle than the Honda without looking understated and dull (IMO) like the Golf.
I do sometimes miss the savage power delivery of my last big BHP Subaru and its simplicity in terms of - no stupid driver modes - it just had one mode, that was it, point and go, no hill start assist, no active radar, no parking sensors, no ESC, just 3 pedals and a steering wheel.
I bought a FRS after driving a lot of different cars.
Came from 10 years of modified Subarus, then a E92 M3, and finally plumped for the Focus - I even posted earlier this year asking for opinions on replacement for the M3 here, and it's really interesting to see what suggestions come back. As I'm not a badge snob, I didn't have a great problem parting with the BMW and although sometimes I miss the bigger boot and the V8 noise I haven't missed it anywhere near as much as I thought I would - if anything I still miss my Impreza a little.
I was *seriously* tempted by the new CTR, it's a great car, very well balanced with bags of grip and inspires huge confidence to push hard, great gearbox, huge boot.
The residuals and looks were a downside but what killed it for me was the bone shaking ride; just as hard and if anything worse - than my old Impreza on BC coilovers, and that was before you put it in +R mode. It ruins what could have been a huge win for Honda if they'd just made the dampers and springs more sensible for UK roads - and I would have bought one hands down over the M4, Focus, Golf R, RS3, and RS5 that I tried, it really is a hugely entertaining car to drive and had a more "old school" feel to it that modern cars.
It still has too many stupid assists in the GT pack that I'd want turned off most of the time - especially the radar that beeps at you nearly everytime you overtake, but it still has that excitement edge that's missing in today's fat, "safe", loaded with gadgetry that makes us lazy modern cars!
If I had to buy something else today, I'd probably consider another M3 v8 in manual, or an Impreza, there really isn't much else out there that interests me that's involving to drive. The Megane is OK but I think the interior would irk me on longer drives, but I've seen how quick they are round track and for a weekend car I would definitely think about one.
So why did I buy the Focus?
1. The grip is superb
2. The power delivery was very linear but with the turbo kick when you needed it, *and* you can install the FPM375 map without voiding the warranty - which incidentally PH you should drive because it makes it the car it should have been from the factory.
Honda and VW should seriously think about a warranty backed mod scheme like Ford - especially when you consider how much both are capable of with a simple stage 1 tweak.
VW especially as I felt the standard Golf map was awful and too reigned in low down, which is great for Autobahn driving, but rubbish for the UK.
If the FPM375 hadn't been available I would probably have bought the Civic.
3. The suspension is compliant without being crashy like the Honda and the Audi derivatives (even Audi with adjustable suspension was just terrible on 11/12 plate cars)
4. It's more subtle than the Honda without looking understated and dull (IMO) like the Golf.
I do sometimes miss the savage power delivery of my last big BHP Subaru and its simplicity in terms of - no stupid driver modes - it just had one mode, that was it, point and go, no hill start assist, no active radar, no parking sensors, no ESC, just 3 pedals and a steering wheel.
Edited by mrnoisy78 on Friday 9th December 11:23
Yipper said:
There seems to be something of a backlash emerging against the Focus RS Mk3. Journalists went mad about it at launch... but many or most posters are now quite negative on it.
Its because its been marketed to the n'th degree and everyone is sick of it. Also because of the plethora of reviews everyone has become an expert on how it drives and has started quoting book figures to back up their detailed knowledge and experience of the car.I have owned by RS for nearly 6 months and been on trips to both Wales and Scotland in various road/weather conditions. I agree with your findings Dan but I think the longer your spend with the car the more you gel and dont find it as agressive or twitchy at the front end. I have also dropped the tyre pressure a couple of psi which has helped the car feel more composed and resolute over undulating roads however I have found the damping nothing less than expectional for such a big car (in normal mode atleast). The car does always feel on it toe's and ready to react at any second which I love but like you say this can made it feel a bit nervous when the roads get damp. I dont think the tyres (Michelin SS) help which are designed to be better in the dry that the wet but I wouldnt change them for anything else. Overall couldnt be happier with the car personally it has exceeded expectation in every way. Currently running FPM 375, Quaife LSD and Mounune exhaust, really is a proper weapon now.
Really enjoying the conversation here and it's very interesting to hear the views of owners, both in terms of experiences with the RS and the cars you've all come from and/or considered as alternatives.
What I'm taking away from this is that I need to spend some more time in the car and also have a go with one with the Mountune kit. There are worse conclusions to reach; just need to get a bit managerial to make sure I get the keys!
Will definitely try dropping the pressures a bit too and see how that works.
Keep it all coming!
Dan
What I'm taking away from this is that I need to spend some more time in the car and also have a go with one with the Mountune kit. There are worse conclusions to reach; just need to get a bit managerial to make sure I get the keys!
Will definitely try dropping the pressures a bit too and see how that works.
Keep it all coming!
Dan
freeform said:
If you are adjusting a Subaru's roll stiffness/balance, it seems recommended to exchange the flexy plastic 'C'-shaped droplinks for something more rigid too, or the new anti-roll bar will flex them all the more.
As far as I know all new-age Subarus come with metal drop links anyway.
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