RE: Shed(s) of the Week: Alfa GTV and Fiat Coupe
Discussion
The GTV is a staggeringly good looking car. If the drive was as good as the looks they'd have been a lauded classic, irrespective of questionable reliability.
I've always said, how can something that is essentially a rather simple FWD everyday car lead to such big bills? Somehow, it finds a way.
I've always said, how can something that is essentially a rather simple FWD everyday car lead to such big bills? Somehow, it finds a way.
Mr Tidy said:
Haha - reminds me of when I worked in Windsor and we had an SL4 postcode and an 01753 exchange, but it is nothing to do with Slough!! 
Tangent, but this lovely part of Shropshire countryside has a Wolverhampton postcodeEither way, I know the owner of the GTV and I'd be happy to vouch for him and his care for the car
I've been running the 2.0 20V VIS (n/a) pictured for two years now as a daily driver and have to say it performs that role really well. I'm the third owner and the first had it for twelve years which was partly why I chose it. The service history was good as was condition and mileage (83K) but I also chose this one due to it having both sunroof and aircon which are quite difficult to find together on these cars.
I'd familiarized myself with the known problems these cars have - Winter handbrake freezing, CHOD (Coolant Hose of Death which yes, I've suffered!) etc - and in the two years I've had ALL the brakes done (discs, pads and handbrake cables plus cambelt and tensioners, courtesy of Solo Italia). I've also replaced the radiator and the exhaust with OE items (genuine Fiat exhausts are hard to come by now).
The car really is a nice all-round driver's 'package'. The 2.0 litre n/a engine is extremely smooth, all the major controls (steering, gearchange, clutch) are light and similarly weighted and although the brakes aren't the Brembo ones found on the Turbo they're totally capable of dealing with the lower 154 BHP power output. The ABS system is particularly well judged, not butting in early and almost imperceptible when it does - although I have to say I'm not the last of the late brakers as I always prefer a combination of brakes and engine braking (another reason for going normally aspirated).
The VIS (Variable Induction System) on the n/a 20V seems to flesh out the torque curve as mine seems to deliver its best in the mid-range where it's very brisk. It'll go higher up the rev range for sure but doesn't seem to revel in that sprint for the redline the way my old Lampredi twin cam fours used to (Fiat 124 Sport/Mirafiori Sport/Strada Abarth etc.).
When you really stretch the VIS you can almost hear the engine turning to you as if to say "OK, we're going for the redline? Why are we going for the redline? We don't normally do this." It doesn't 'strain' to get there but you just end up feeling that it could really do with a pair of uprated/fast road cams.
Handling is a strong suit even on the ordinary 15" rims and having slightly less front end weight (no Turbo and ancillaries (manifold, Viscodrive, etc) plus less power it never gets unruly but still tracks beautifully. Slightly comfier ride too on its higher profile sidewalls. Little bit of drift towards the limit but does it all of a piece. I like that in a car.
The upshot of this is that you tend to drive it in the "VIS range" and fuel economy is surprisingly good as a result. I've done a couple of spirited long drives to Cornwall and it'll easily clock around 450 miles on a tank (63 litres). It's often said that there's little difference between the Turbo and the n/a Fiat Coupes in terms of fuel economy but the drop-off is far less in the n/a when you rag them both.
After 17 years on the road the Fiat is wearing well physically. The paint is pretty good (zero lacquer peel)and it has no interior rattles AT ALL! The shell is pretty stiff but it has to be said the exterior panelling is very light so expect the occasional car park ding. On the subject of parking, I always try to park 'nose in' to protect the clamshell bonnet which is VERY difficult to repair apparently - it's most of the front end of the car and often replacement is the only solution. Watch out for the thick A-pillars too. They can easily hide a sizeable car never mind a motorcycle!
One other thing I've noticed is that this is the first car I've ever owned which has NEVER needed so much as a drop of oil between oil changes. It just doesn't use or lose any oil whatsoever. I don't think that's bad after 97K miles (yes, ha ha, not bad for a Fiat!).
I have to say I'm really pleased with it. It's a 'happy little car' if you get my drift and definitely a keeper.
PS. I know F*** all about the Alfa...
I'd familiarized myself with the known problems these cars have - Winter handbrake freezing, CHOD (Coolant Hose of Death which yes, I've suffered!) etc - and in the two years I've had ALL the brakes done (discs, pads and handbrake cables plus cambelt and tensioners, courtesy of Solo Italia). I've also replaced the radiator and the exhaust with OE items (genuine Fiat exhausts are hard to come by now).
The car really is a nice all-round driver's 'package'. The 2.0 litre n/a engine is extremely smooth, all the major controls (steering, gearchange, clutch) are light and similarly weighted and although the brakes aren't the Brembo ones found on the Turbo they're totally capable of dealing with the lower 154 BHP power output. The ABS system is particularly well judged, not butting in early and almost imperceptible when it does - although I have to say I'm not the last of the late brakers as I always prefer a combination of brakes and engine braking (another reason for going normally aspirated).
The VIS (Variable Induction System) on the n/a 20V seems to flesh out the torque curve as mine seems to deliver its best in the mid-range where it's very brisk. It'll go higher up the rev range for sure but doesn't seem to revel in that sprint for the redline the way my old Lampredi twin cam fours used to (Fiat 124 Sport/Mirafiori Sport/Strada Abarth etc.).
When you really stretch the VIS you can almost hear the engine turning to you as if to say "OK, we're going for the redline? Why are we going for the redline? We don't normally do this." It doesn't 'strain' to get there but you just end up feeling that it could really do with a pair of uprated/fast road cams.
Handling is a strong suit even on the ordinary 15" rims and having slightly less front end weight (no Turbo and ancillaries (manifold, Viscodrive, etc) plus less power it never gets unruly but still tracks beautifully. Slightly comfier ride too on its higher profile sidewalls. Little bit of drift towards the limit but does it all of a piece. I like that in a car.
The upshot of this is that you tend to drive it in the "VIS range" and fuel economy is surprisingly good as a result. I've done a couple of spirited long drives to Cornwall and it'll easily clock around 450 miles on a tank (63 litres). It's often said that there's little difference between the Turbo and the n/a Fiat Coupes in terms of fuel economy but the drop-off is far less in the n/a when you rag them both.
After 17 years on the road the Fiat is wearing well physically. The paint is pretty good (zero lacquer peel)and it has no interior rattles AT ALL! The shell is pretty stiff but it has to be said the exterior panelling is very light so expect the occasional car park ding. On the subject of parking, I always try to park 'nose in' to protect the clamshell bonnet which is VERY difficult to repair apparently - it's most of the front end of the car and often replacement is the only solution. Watch out for the thick A-pillars too. They can easily hide a sizeable car never mind a motorcycle!
One other thing I've noticed is that this is the first car I've ever owned which has NEVER needed so much as a drop of oil between oil changes. It just doesn't use or lose any oil whatsoever. I don't think that's bad after 97K miles (yes, ha ha, not bad for a Fiat!).
I have to say I'm really pleased with it. It's a 'happy little car' if you get my drift and definitely a keeper.
PS. I know F*** all about the Alfa...
carinaman said:
only1ian said:
That's a Turismo spec GTV a rare beast indeed!
Is that a specific trim model? It's the lower spec trim than Lusso?Regardless of the trim spec. the handbrake lever looks capable of hanging a towel on it.
Edited by carinaman on Friday 9th December 13:20
That hangbrake was massive
I bought my phase 1 GTV 2.0TS around beginning of October - paid a little bit over shed money though bidding on the ebay auction got a little bit keen towards the end. 83,000 miles, cambelt service and brakes all round in July.
It's just a second car so has only done a couple of hundred miles but I have had no problems or regrets so far.
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/boAFkW81.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/Yc6jQahU" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/Yc6jQahU.jpg)
It's just a second car so has only done a couple of hundred miles but I have had no problems or regrets so far.
PoopahScoopah said:
STiG911 said:
That Alfa's a nice little thing and does appear to have been well looked after, however...
People should run away from the Fiat. Not walk, run. It's MOT History has more holes than the average British road; for example: One of three reasons listed for failure in Sept 2015 notes excessive corrosion on the nearside vehicle structure with 30cm of the body mountings, but then a pass is registered on THE SAME DAY with no increase in mileage ?! The rest is even worse than that. Very Suspish.
Run, Run now.
I've not read the history, but if I may offer one plausible explanation to the above......owner could have been well aware of the impending rust failure and had arranged to get it fixed and MOT'd at the same time. The garage could have done the welding that day and retested it. Now that may seem odd (why test and fail then fix and retest?) but I've had this with my favoured garage, where I ask them to fix a known failure on the day of the test and they always put it through first to record the failure before fixing it. I can see logic in doing that.People should run away from the Fiat. Not walk, run. It's MOT History has more holes than the average British road; for example: One of three reasons listed for failure in Sept 2015 notes excessive corrosion on the nearside vehicle structure with 30cm of the body mountings, but then a pass is registered on THE SAME DAY with no increase in mileage ?! The rest is even worse than that. Very Suspish.
Run, Run now.
The garage I use does the same, I would still run away though, it's a Fiat....
Oddball RS said:
The Fiat in 1998 20V format is a five pot not a four and was rated at 170Bhp not 154, not the most accurate of articles.
no it was not, it is a five pot but I had one and it was 147, even the later Marea was 150 and later updated to 155, my Stilo 2.4, (with the same engine, but in true Italian style when they were challenged about the the emisions issues just increased the power ouput, I love Italian motoring logic) however has an amazing 170...great fun on the Mohawk tyres it came with nearly two years ago when I bought it..brilliant in wet Scottish weather!!Edited by briang9 on Sunday 11th December 17:52
I like both the GTV and Coupe 20V Turbo.
I do remember about 7+ years ago, I was finding it very hard to find a nice Coupe 20V Turbo, lots of them had many issues. There were a few ropey GTVs but I managed to find nicer ones far more easily.
The TS is OK, but it's really about the V6 in the GTV's. Same with the Coupe, it has to be the turbo - I remember this feeling like a quick car back in the day.
Also the GTV and Coupe shared quite a few bits, I think the front end suspension e.t.c is near identical , but the Alfa rear suspension was more advanced. I do recall the Coupe being a slightly nicer drive oddly (I can't remember why, I think it may have been the damping), also the GTV never had the quick rack of the 156/147 which was a shame.
Having said all that, the leather e.t.c in the GTV is much nicer (albiet the seats lack support), but it is more 'special' thing to behold in my eyes.
I do remember about 7+ years ago, I was finding it very hard to find a nice Coupe 20V Turbo, lots of them had many issues. There were a few ropey GTVs but I managed to find nicer ones far more easily.
The TS is OK, but it's really about the V6 in the GTV's. Same with the Coupe, it has to be the turbo - I remember this feeling like a quick car back in the day.
Also the GTV and Coupe shared quite a few bits, I think the front end suspension e.t.c is near identical , but the Alfa rear suspension was more advanced. I do recall the Coupe being a slightly nicer drive oddly (I can't remember why, I think it may have been the damping), also the GTV never had the quick rack of the 156/147 which was a shame.
Having said all that, the leather e.t.c in the GTV is much nicer (albiet the seats lack support), but it is more 'special' thing to behold in my eyes.
Edited by V6Alfisti on Sunday 11th December 00:25
Most 90's Coupes (Nissan 200SX excepted?) had a range of engine / trim options.
The non-turbo versions of the Coupe and the four-pot variants of the Alfa basked in the perceived glory of the faster halo models, but for much of the time, they were just as nice to drive. In fact for the Fiat, I'd have to say that the non-turbo was a nicer drive round town than the turbo versions. When I had my 16v, I was lovely to have no boost lag, although it struggled against anything modern at the traffic light Grand Prix. The 20v N/A was only a tiny bit faster than the 16v, but made up for it with a gorgeous off-beat 5-pot soundtrack
However, for the lucky few that have taken a Busso to the redline, or a 20VT through it's famous third gear on full boost, nothing but the top model will do.
As standard, the Alfa's suspension was technically superior, but at the rear, it massively ate into boot and rear seat space, making the Fiat more practical. However, with a few choice suspension mods, the Fiat can me made to handle exceptionally well.
Whilst the Busso is possibly the best-sounding engine ever built, anyone after big power will usually go for the 20VT and its surprising tuning ability. 300bhp is a doddle, 350bhp for under a grand and the sky's the limit after that (I'm running 450+ bhp and the lump has done about 300k miles, albeit with a couple of self-inflicted rebuilds along the way)
Those that haven't already got a GTV or Coupe have already missed the boat on inexpensive opportunities for the halo models, but the lower-spec variants can still be had quite cheaply (and quite reliably if you know what to look out for). After a few SotW appearances, surely both the Alfa and Fiat will start to escape the barry boys and end up in the hands of enthusiasts - 'bout time...
The non-turbo versions of the Coupe and the four-pot variants of the Alfa basked in the perceived glory of the faster halo models, but for much of the time, they were just as nice to drive. In fact for the Fiat, I'd have to say that the non-turbo was a nicer drive round town than the turbo versions. When I had my 16v, I was lovely to have no boost lag, although it struggled against anything modern at the traffic light Grand Prix. The 20v N/A was only a tiny bit faster than the 16v, but made up for it with a gorgeous off-beat 5-pot soundtrack
However, for the lucky few that have taken a Busso to the redline, or a 20VT through it's famous third gear on full boost, nothing but the top model will do.
As standard, the Alfa's suspension was technically superior, but at the rear, it massively ate into boot and rear seat space, making the Fiat more practical. However, with a few choice suspension mods, the Fiat can me made to handle exceptionally well.
Whilst the Busso is possibly the best-sounding engine ever built, anyone after big power will usually go for the 20VT and its surprising tuning ability. 300bhp is a doddle, 350bhp for under a grand and the sky's the limit after that (I'm running 450+ bhp and the lump has done about 300k miles, albeit with a couple of self-inflicted rebuilds along the way)
Those that haven't already got a GTV or Coupe have already missed the boat on inexpensive opportunities for the halo models, but the lower-spec variants can still be had quite cheaply (and quite reliably if you know what to look out for). After a few SotW appearances, surely both the Alfa and Fiat will start to escape the barry boys and end up in the hands of enthusiasts - 'bout time...
As always seem to have come into this thread late so I just KNOW I'm repeating stuff already said.
Sorry!
But, a few points.
Shed money or not why would you buy a GTV that doesn't have a V6 in it? But, for shed money (or near enough) you can get a 156 that DOES have a V6 in it, and pretty much just a larger GTV.
On the same note why buy a Coupe that doesn't have a turbo? If youre going to go for it then go for it! Personally I would far sooner have the 4 cylinder turbo than a 5 cylinder non. If there's any left?
Last point, and I hate to take issue with Shed (maybe I'm just being pissy because there was no "fnarr, fnarr" stuff this time!) but please, PLEASE do not believe that you can leave the belt changes on a 2.0 twin spark for 72,000 miles. You can't, hardly ever.
Even Alfa grudgingly admitted it and changed the interval to 36,000.
Sorry!
But, a few points.
Shed money or not why would you buy a GTV that doesn't have a V6 in it? But, for shed money (or near enough) you can get a 156 that DOES have a V6 in it, and pretty much just a larger GTV.
On the same note why buy a Coupe that doesn't have a turbo? If youre going to go for it then go for it! Personally I would far sooner have the 4 cylinder turbo than a 5 cylinder non. If there's any left?
Last point, and I hate to take issue with Shed (maybe I'm just being pissy because there was no "fnarr, fnarr" stuff this time!) but please, PLEASE do not believe that you can leave the belt changes on a 2.0 twin spark for 72,000 miles. You can't, hardly ever.
Even Alfa grudgingly admitted it and changed the interval to 36,000.
Having had both of these models (although the 20v turbo version of the Coupe) I'd plump for the GTV every time.
Despite having bought the GTV from a Royal Navy Captain who'se main claim to fame was grounding his destroyer on rocks off Australia (later found not to be his fault) and therefore being nervous of potential issues with the underside of the car, it was a peach. The 2.0 litre engine was lovely and the car never gave me any problems. Although it must be said I'm a big fan of preventative maintenance and made sure the car was serviced well in advance of schedule.
The Fiat Coupe was a nightmare of reliability problems and, even when everything was ticking along nicely, was a lot less fun to drive than expected. Terrible torque-steer.
WillS
Despite having bought the GTV from a Royal Navy Captain who'se main claim to fame was grounding his destroyer on rocks off Australia (later found not to be his fault) and therefore being nervous of potential issues with the underside of the car, it was a peach. The 2.0 litre engine was lovely and the car never gave me any problems. Although it must be said I'm a big fan of preventative maintenance and made sure the car was serviced well in advance of schedule.
The Fiat Coupe was a nightmare of reliability problems and, even when everything was ticking along nicely, was a lot less fun to drive than expected. Terrible torque-steer.
WillS
WillS66 said:
The Fiat Coupe was a nightmare of reliability problems and, even when everything was ticking along nicely, was a lot less fun to drive than expected. Terrible torque-steer.
It did make a lot more torque than the 2.0TS GTV though; 229 lbft compared to the Alfa's 137 lbft. Mr2Mike said:
WillS66 said:
The Fiat Coupe was a nightmare of reliability problems and, even when everything was ticking along nicely, was a lot less fun to drive than expected. Terrible torque-steer.
It did make a lot more torque than the 2.0TS GTV though; 229 lbft compared to the Alfa's 137 lbft. Nigel_O said:
WillS66 said:
Terrible torque-steer.
WillS
In which case, something was wrong. My Coupe has more than double the stock power and has almost no torque steerWillS
If you want torque steer from a 90's coupe you need a Vauxhall Calibra. I drove one in Germany and you can literally do roundabouts only using your feet.
robemcdonald said:
The NA Fiat 20v made 137 lb/ft. same as the Alfa. You might be thinking of the turbo version.
Fair point, in which case his Coupe probably had tired front wishbone bushes which are very much a consumable part. The Turbo does tend to torque steer a little even with brand new wishbones unless the road surface is near perfect.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff