RE: PH 2016 - Our favourite cars and bikes
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Good effort but. porsche.com/uk said:
from £ 41,739.00 incl. VAT
I reckon I could spec. one at £44-£45K and be quite happy thanks very much. I've bought new Porsche's in the past and always been mean on spec's. Made not a jot of difference come resale. They all sold with little/no fuss. RenesisEvo said:
I was a little confused by this talk of 'run-on', having thought about it more, I wonder if two similar, but different, effects are being confused/mistaken for each other.
The first is 'coasting'. I did recall that a lot of recent gearboxes have a coast function (many ZF boxes, e.g. 8HP50 as fitted into BMWs have this), whereby the drivetrain disconnects on the over-run, letting the car coast further - so what might be perceived as 'run-on', could just be an absence of engine braking, rather than any actual forcing from the engine. Coming from large capacity N/A or turbodiesels with strong engine braking, a coasting function will feel quite pronounced (for example, stepping from a N/A 981 to a 718). Porsche mention on their website that the 718 has this feature: http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/718/718-cayman/dr...
So rather like depressing the clutch pedal in a manual car rather than just lifting off the throttle? Presumably there must be some electronic brain that decides when this function is appropriate to engage. I've not driven one of these new-fangled cars, but wouldn't that give some undesirable dynamic qualities? What happens when cornering and you want to trim the car's attitude with a little lift-off? You wouldn't want the car to go into free-wheel mid-corner. Or travelling downhill where you just want the engine-braking to hold your speed with the throttle closed, would it instead go into free-wheel and go racing off down the hill, requiring brakes to keep it in check?The first is 'coasting'. I did recall that a lot of recent gearboxes have a coast function (many ZF boxes, e.g. 8HP50 as fitted into BMWs have this), whereby the drivetrain disconnects on the over-run, letting the car coast further - so what might be perceived as 'run-on', could just be an absence of engine braking, rather than any actual forcing from the engine. Coming from large capacity N/A or turbodiesels with strong engine braking, a coasting function will feel quite pronounced (for example, stepping from a N/A 981 to a 718). Porsche mention on their website that the 718 has this feature: http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/718/718-cayman/dr...
Porsche said:
A coasting function becomes available where the situation allows. The engine is decoupled from the transmission to avoid deceleration caused by engine braking. In this way, optimum use is made of the vehicle’s momentum, enabling it to coast for longer distances.
I'm actually struggling to imagine a situation where I would want to be coasting along in free-wheel. As a driver of old-fashioned manual cars, I never coast along like that.
thegreenhell said:
So rather like depressing the clutch pedal in a manual car rather than just lifting off the throttle? Presumably there must be some electronic brain that decides when this function is appropriate to engage. I've not driven one of these new-fangled cars, but wouldn't that give some undesirable dynamic qualities? What happens when cornering and you want to trim the car's attitude with a little lift-off? You wouldn't want the car to go into free-wheel mid-corner. Or travelling downhill where you just want the engine-braking to hold your speed with the throttle closed, would it instead go into free-wheel and go racing off down the hill, requiring brakes to keep it in check?
I'm actually struggling to imagine a situation where I would want to be coasting along in free-wheel. As a driver of old-fashioned manual cars, I never coast along like that.
Yes, like sticking the clutch in (or selecting neutral). I completely agree that it would seem a bit odd. I believe it works generally on straight-ahead, level driving only, I'm sure if you were cornering it wouldn't; having said that no car I've driven (and I've driven many different ones) requires no throttle to balance when cornering, and it only engages at zero throttle. I've not extensively tested it so can't comment on what happens downhill; the only times I've experienced it actually happening has been on motorways, when wanting (and failing) to trim my speed using acceleration sense, and then being disappointed that I need to use the brakes instead. Having said that, cars can tell when they're going up and down hill (not using level sensors! Or it would get confused when it pitches under braking), so I'm hopeful it's all been calibrated to give some engine braking going downhill.I'm actually struggling to imagine a situation where I would want to be coasting along in free-wheel. As a driver of old-fashioned manual cars, I never coast along like that.
VanquishRider said:
HeMightBeBanned said:
SevenR said:
ogrodz said:
The RS4 simply requires a change down of gear as the engine slows the car down - I use the brakes to drive around the bends .
Eh? I'm confused..
RenesisEvo said:
Secondly, you get an effect on-throttle with turbocharged engines, whereby when reducing (but not completely lifting off) the throttle angle during a range when boost levels are rising, the car accelerates at a similar or greater rate - this could be the 'run-on' that's being talked about. The response of the car feels disconnected to the users input, as lifting off doesn't immediately (but will after a moment) slow the car, due to the inherent lag in the system. Combine a boosty engine with a coasting gearbox (like, erm, a 718!?!) and you've got a perfect storm (in a teacup) of very different over-run behaviour to an older N/A engine driving a simpler transmission.
This happens on my Impreza and I'd never known what it was up until now. Cleaned the throttle body thinking it was sticking! Thank you!RenesisEvo said:
thegreenhell said:
So rather like depressing the clutch pedal in a manual car rather than just lifting off the throttle? Presumably there must be some electronic brain that decides when this function is appropriate to engage. I've not driven one of these new-fangled cars, but wouldn't that give some undesirable dynamic qualities? What happens when cornering and you want to trim the car's attitude with a little lift-off? You wouldn't want the car to go into free-wheel mid-corner. Or travelling downhill where you just want the engine-braking to hold your speed with the throttle closed, would it instead go into free-wheel and go racing off down the hill, requiring brakes to keep it in check?
I'm actually struggling to imagine a situation where I would want to be coasting along in free-wheel. As a driver of old-fashioned manual cars, I never coast along like that.
Yes, like sticking the clutch in (or selecting neutral). I completely agree that it would seem a bit odd. I believe it works generally on straight-ahead, level driving only, I'm sure if you were cornering it wouldn't; having said that no car I've driven (and I've driven many different ones) requires no throttle to balance when cornering, and it only engages at zero throttle. I've not extensively tested it so can't comment on what happens downhill; the only times I've experienced it actually happening has been on motorways, when wanting (and failing) to trim my speed using acceleration sense, and then being disappointed that I need to use the brakes instead. Having said that, cars can tell when they're going up and down hill (not using level sensors! Or it would get confused when it pitches under braking), so I'm hopeful it's all been calibrated to give some engine braking going downhill.I'm actually struggling to imagine a situation where I would want to be coasting along in free-wheel. As a driver of old-fashioned manual cars, I never coast along like that.
anniesdad said:
I reckon I could spec. one at £44-£45K and be quite happy thanks very much. I've bought new Porsche's in the past and always been mean on spec's. Made not a jot of difference come resale. They all sold with little/no fuss.
This, I've never been lucky enough to be in the position to order and spec a car from new. Let alone a Porsche. But I even on the configurator I found myself leaning towards a few choice (and to be fair, not all compulsory) options. I think you can have a very interesting example for around £45k. 
HeMightBeBanned said:
Dear Dan,
With respect to the above, "It has possibly the best inherent balance, the best chassis, the best steering and the best control weights of any modern sports car".
You need to look closer to home to find something that actually fits your assertion. Hethel has the answer, not Stuttgart.
With respect to the above, "It has possibly the best inherent balance, the best chassis, the best steering and the best control weights of any modern sports car".
You need to look closer to home to find something that actually fits your assertion. Hethel has the answer, not Stuttgart.
Spot onYou can add "better sound" to the list too based on my experience of a 718S. Even the humble 4 Cyl Hethel variants sound better than the flat 4 (flat being the operative word when talking about noise!) and the V6 Lotus variants are in a different sound league altogether
triathlonstu said:
RenesisEvo said:
Secondly, you get an effect on-throttle with turbocharged engines, whereby when reducing (but not completely lifting off) the throttle angle during a range when boost levels are rising, the car accelerates at a similar or greater rate - this could be the 'run-on' that's being talked about. The response of the car feels disconnected to the users input, as lifting off doesn't immediately (but will after a moment) slow the car, due to the inherent lag in the system. Combine a boosty engine with a coasting gearbox (like, erm, a 718!?!) and you've got a perfect storm (in a teacup) of very different over-run behaviour to an older N/A engine driving a simpler transmission.
This happens on my Impreza and I'd never known what it was up until now. Cleaned the throttle body thinking it was sticking! Thank you!ogrodz said:
VanquishRider said:
HeMightBeBanned said:
SevenR said:
ogrodz said:
The RS4 simply requires a change down of gear as the engine slows the car down - I use the brakes to drive around the bends .
Eh? I'm confused.....no need to brake or correct in corner if done right ..Also a much smoother way to drive then plonkers i see that got to fast in , brakes ...complain about oversteer or understeer ..just learn how to balance your car through a corner ..and as i learnt never ever use brakes mid corner ..big no no ...bad news in some cars ... like 205 gti or deadly in mk1 spitfire ..used to jack back up then flick!
i also remember Sir Jackie Stewart with his contraption of a balanced orange on his car bonnet keeping it from rolling while cornering brake smoothly in coast through and power out ,,kepping it balanced ...his view was it makes you faster and your female passenger will be happier as well ..great guy from great era
Edited by angelicupstarts on Thursday 22 December 19:45
Edited by angelicupstarts on Thursday 22 December 19:49
Edited by angelicupstarts on Thursday 22 December 19:50
ogrodz said:
I can't stand "run on" - but it seems that car manufacturers are building this in to all modern cars now - I assume to save fuel??
It's called 'throttle hang', and is an ECU controlled feature that slows the closing of the throttle when the driver lifts off abruptly, to ensure that air is fed to the cylinders for complete combustion of the fuel going through them. It's designed to lower the emission of gases generated by incomplete combustion. 
If only the Cayman S was a 50k car! Once you have added the necessary options, you are up to about 60k. That was a deal breaker for me. What do you mean DAB is an option on a 50k car!? My 15k Renault has DAB as standard for Christ's sake! Porsche really like to make things hard for themselves.
Loyly said:
ogrodz said:
I can't stand "run on" - but it seems that car manufacturers are building this in to all modern cars now - I assume to save fuel??
It's called 'throttle hang', and is an ECU controlled feature that slows the closing of the throttle when the driver lifts off abruptly, to ensure that air is fed to the cylinders for complete combustion of the fuel going through them. It's designed to lower the emission of gases generated by incomplete combustion. Porsche 718 S press pack said:
Same spontaneous response as a naturally-aspirated engine and Dynamic Boost function
In tuning the turbocharging process, Porsche developers placed a high priority on achieving engine responsiveness which is comparable to that of a naturally-aspirated engine. “Pre-conditioning” of the turbocharger in the part-load range is one of the ways in which a sporty style of driving is realised. The bypass valve is closed, ignition timing is retarded and the throttle is opened slightly. This keeps the momentary drive torque the same, while boosting air throughput in the engine and increasing charge pressure. When the driver then applies full throttle, the higher charge pressure spontaneously makes a higher torque available. Even if the driver briefly takes the foot off the accelerator pedal at full acceleration, the turbo engine reacts quickly like a naturally-aspirated engine. The throttle remains wide open, and only the petrol injection is stopped. As a result, charge pressure does not drop completely, and the engine can react spontaneously to another press of the accelerator.
I have to say, I didn't notice this 'run on' described when driving the cars but I'll look out for it next time I do. And, while I'm here, I did say inertia free rather than lag free. And you'll get that from a significantly oversquare boxer four in a way you'll never get in a boosty in-line four such as you'd get in a Golf R or any number of equivalents. With or without a turbo an engine like this is significantly more exotic and responsive than the regular four-cylinder turbos hot hatch drivers are used to, impressive as many of them are. And, frankly, I think that's part of the problem with this car. People hear 'four-cylinder turbo' and assume it's the same as you get in a Golf, just with an expensive badge. Rather, it's a 911 Carrera turbo engine minus a couple of cylinders and with that really fancy variable vane turbo. One of the reasons I'll keep banging on about it - it might not SOUND interesting (I'll never pretend it does) but it IS interesting and behaves in a way nothing else in the market does. Even mechanically similar (oversquare, boxer turbo, 2.5-litre) Subaru engines. In tuning the turbocharging process, Porsche developers placed a high priority on achieving engine responsiveness which is comparable to that of a naturally-aspirated engine. “Pre-conditioning” of the turbocharger in the part-load range is one of the ways in which a sporty style of driving is realised. The bypass valve is closed, ignition timing is retarded and the throttle is opened slightly. This keeps the momentary drive torque the same, while boosting air throughput in the engine and increasing charge pressure. When the driver then applies full throttle, the higher charge pressure spontaneously makes a higher torque available. Even if the driver briefly takes the foot off the accelerator pedal at full acceleration, the turbo engine reacts quickly like a naturally-aspirated engine. The throttle remains wide open, and only the petrol injection is stopped. As a result, charge pressure does not drop completely, and the engine can react spontaneously to another press of the accelerator.
I'm on a roll now (sorry) but when it comes to comparisons with Hethel product, again, Porsche is at an advantage here. This is a bespoke engine derived from a proper sports car motor, not a souped up (very well souped up!) Toyota engine also found in pick-ups and MPVs. In everything from throttle response to redline and - most significantly - layout and centre of gravity Porsche is at a huge packaging advantage here as opposed to the top heavy transverse V6 layout Lotus uses out of necessity and cost. Don't get me wrong and credit due, Lotus manages to offset that with steering feel, weight saving and chassis set-up unmatched in the business. Steering, whether unassisted in the Exige or power-assisted in the Evora is better than Porsche's EPAS too. But - fundamentally - the Boxster/Cayman platform is better balanced. Tuned and set up to be a little 'safe' and inert out of the box. Heavier than Lotus. Overburdened with an excessively complicated range of options and unnecessary gadgets and gizmos. And arguably over-tyred too. But I'm arguing a specific point about the fundamental package in the story.
As a wider consideration I'd almost consider Lotus product to be 'specialist' in this context and the Boxster/Cayman 'mainstream' in that they are aimed at the TT/SLC/Z4 crowd where Lotus plays to a more niche audience. And against all of those products the 718 is, quite clearly, fundamentally a better mainstream sports car package in its basic layout. That it ticks all the boxes that crowd expect (squishy plastics, nice nav, posing power, etc) while being (at the very least) the dynamic equal of the more 'purist' product that Lotus offers remains a key selling point IMO. The mechanical packaging also permits Porsche to offer a PDK option that's far and above better than the auto Lotus is forced to use. And, for the record, I love a Lotus!
I'll get off me soapbox now!
Cheers,
Dan
Whichever way one tries to describe it, the 'run on' and generally vague feeling of the throttle of these latest generation turbo engines ruin cars and driving experiences. Ride a motorbike and you'll be reminded of how a throttle opening and closing should feel.
Case in point, I spent an afternoon at the Porsche experience centre at Silverstone driving the new Panamera (V8 diesel, new 4S and the turbo). All of them were exceptionally capable but not a patch on my older GTS.
I'd take flawed and interesting over the new breed of 'capable' any day. The character has disappeared from so many of these cars now, may as well buy a Tesla.
Case in point, I spent an afternoon at the Porsche experience centre at Silverstone driving the new Panamera (V8 diesel, new 4S and the turbo). All of them were exceptionally capable but not a patch on my older GTS.
I'd take flawed and interesting over the new breed of 'capable' any day. The character has disappeared from so many of these cars now, may as well buy a Tesla.
My Cayman S came to £53,921 on the road - delivered a few weeks ago - it is my daily car so biased towards this not ultimate handling / track performance but includes leather, sat nav, big wheels etc. It all depends on what is important - you can spend a lot if you want
G1 Guards Red £0.00
AS Black Leather package with partial leather seats £267.00
718 Model designation '718' £0.00
636 ParkAssist (front and rear) £599.00
559 Trim strips in a high-gloss finish £275.00
480 6-speed manual gearbox £0.00
433 20-inch Carrera S wheels £971.00
P08 Sports seats (2-way, electric) £0.00
573 Two-zone automatic climate control £518.00
342 Seat heating £284.00
583 Smoking package £36.00
581 Passenger footwell storage net £0.00
7UG Navigation Module for Porsche Communication Management (PCM) £1,052.00
9VL BOSE® surround sound-system £801.00
QV3 Digital radio £284.00
Sub Total £ 5,087.00
G1 Guards Red £0.00
AS Black Leather package with partial leather seats £267.00
718 Model designation '718' £0.00
636 ParkAssist (front and rear) £599.00
559 Trim strips in a high-gloss finish £275.00
480 6-speed manual gearbox £0.00
433 20-inch Carrera S wheels £971.00
P08 Sports seats (2-way, electric) £0.00
573 Two-zone automatic climate control £518.00
342 Seat heating £284.00
583 Smoking package £36.00
581 Passenger footwell storage net £0.00
7UG Navigation Module for Porsche Communication Management (PCM) £1,052.00
9VL BOSE® surround sound-system £801.00
QV3 Digital radio £284.00
Sub Total £ 5,087.00
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