Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?
Discussion
After seven pages of interesting debate on another section of the forum, i've brought this question to the great unwashed of PH.
This may come down to ones perception on how you view gear selection. Is the act of selecting the gear deemed manual or the mechanism to undertake it? is the use of a clutch and positioning of the stick the defining moment or the point at which you decide to up/down shift and flick the lever.
Manual modes on double clutch boxes can be programmed to bounce of the limiter, just like a manual, but they won't let you stall - is that such a bad thing?
Is diverting your eyes away from the road to check the gear position readout worse than moving your hand?
Discuss.
This may come down to ones perception on how you view gear selection. Is the act of selecting the gear deemed manual or the mechanism to undertake it? is the use of a clutch and positioning of the stick the defining moment or the point at which you decide to up/down shift and flick the lever.
Manual modes on double clutch boxes can be programmed to bounce of the limiter, just like a manual, but they won't let you stall - is that such a bad thing?
Is diverting your eyes away from the road to check the gear position readout worse than moving your hand?
Discuss.
e8_pack said:
This may come down to ones perception on how you view gear selection. Is the act of selecting the gear deemed manual or the mechanism to undertake it? is the use of a clutch and positioning of the stick the defining moment or the point at which you decide to up/down shift and flick the lever.
In answer to the question..."Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?".My answer would be no. They are a gear selection option on an automatic gearbox ie. a gearbox with no clutch pedal.
In my opinion, the definition should actually be based around the clutch.
When I talk about a "manual gearbox", what I (and I reckon, a good proportion of people) actually mean, is a manually operated clutch.
I wouldn't really consider a dual clutch, with two pedals a "manual"; even though it technically allows manual changing of gears, the actual mechanism of disengagement is controlled automatically.
When I talk about a "manual gearbox", what I (and I reckon, a good proportion of people) actually mean, is a manually operated clutch.
I wouldn't really consider a dual clutch, with two pedals a "manual"; even though it technically allows manual changing of gears, the actual mechanism of disengagement is controlled automatically.
e8_pack said:
Is the act of selecting the gear deemed manual or the mechanism to undertake it? is the use of a clutch and positioning of the stick the defining moment or the point at which you decide to up/down shift and flick the lever.
There are multiple contexts in which to frame the question (and answer):- in relation to a driving licence (i.e. restricted to auto only) then the deciding factor is whether there is a clutch pedal or not;
- in relation to the design of the gearbox, a "manual" transmission design would have pairs of constant-mesh helical gears with each gear being engaged by a dog clutch; "automatic" transmissions would have epicyclic gears controlled by plate clutch packs (I think - maybe other solutions too). Double-clutch transmissions in particular have muddied/merged these definitions in recent times. I suppose there's no real prohibition (apart from not being the best cheapest solution to the problem at hand) why a constant mesh gearbox couldn't be solely changed by automated means, and an epicyclic gearbox being changed solely by manual means (disregarding clutch operation at this stage);
- in relation to how the driver actually interacts with the gearbox: if the driver has to initiate an action for the gearbox to change gear, then it's a manual (or in manual mode); if the gearbox can do it itself then it's an auto (or in auto mode).
Each context has its own merit depending on the point of view or discussion at hand.
e8_pack said:
Is diverting your eyes away from the road to check the gear position readout worse than moving your hand?
I can't remember ever having to do this. In cars that have a gear lever gaiter you can't necessarily tell by looking at the lever which gear it's in. It's easier to learn a vague idea of the revs:speed ratio of the gears and go from that, or even completely disregarding knowing which gear you're in, change down if you need more acceleration and change up if you want to drop the engine revs at your current speed.xRIEx said:
There are multiple contexts in which to frame the question (and answer):
- in relation to a driving licence (i.e. restricted to auto only) then the deciding factor is whether there is a clutch pedal or not;
- in relation to the design of the gearbox, a "manual" transmission design would have pairs of constant-mesh helical gears with each gear being engaged by a dog clutch; "automatic" transmissions would have epicyclic gears controlled by plate clutch packs (I think - maybe other solutions too). Double-clutch transmissions in particular have muddied/merged these definitions in recent times. I suppose there's no real prohibition (apart from not being the best cheapest solution to the problem at hand) why a constant mesh gearbox couldn't be solely changed by automated means, and an epicyclic gearbox being changed solely by manual means (disregarding clutch operation at this stage);
- in relation to how the driver actually interacts with the gearbox: if the driver has to initiate an action for the gearbox to change gear, then it's a manual (or in manual mode); if the gearbox can do it itself then it's an auto (or in auto mode).
Each context has its own merit depending on the point of view or discussion at hand.
- in relation to a driving licence (i.e. restricted to auto only) then the deciding factor is whether there is a clutch pedal or not;
- in relation to the design of the gearbox, a "manual" transmission design would have pairs of constant-mesh helical gears with each gear being engaged by a dog clutch; "automatic" transmissions would have epicyclic gears controlled by plate clutch packs (I think - maybe other solutions too). Double-clutch transmissions in particular have muddied/merged these definitions in recent times. I suppose there's no real prohibition (apart from not being the best cheapest solution to the problem at hand) why a constant mesh gearbox couldn't be solely changed by automated means, and an epicyclic gearbox being changed solely by manual means (disregarding clutch operation at this stage);
- in relation to how the driver actually interacts with the gearbox: if the driver has to initiate an action for the gearbox to change gear, then it's a manual (or in manual mode); if the gearbox can do it itself then it's an auto (or in auto mode).
Each context has its own merit depending on the point of view or discussion at hand.
I think this is the reason for so much contention. For so long, the internal workings and the external interface were tied together in pairs - almost all automatics were epicyclic (with the odd CVT thrown in for good measure) and almost all manuals were helical. Then the DSG type box came along which was an automated box in terms of its interface to the driver but used helical gears like most manual boxes. For me the word "manual" refers to the interface not to the internal workings so I consider a "manual" to be a system where the driver has physical control over the internal components of the gearbox; an automatic to be a system where it's entirely controlled by the gearbox (either electronically or mechanically); and a semi-automatic/semi-manual to be a system where the driver tells a gearbox what to do but the gearbox itself actually does it. Of course a huge number of automatics, both epicyclic and helical, can operate in either of the latter two modes these days.
I think the best terms for the actual hardware we generally see in vehicles would be:
Automated epicyclic torque-converter transmission
Automated continuously variable transmission
Automated single-clutch helical transmission
Automated double-clutch helical transmission
Manual H-pattern helical transmission
Manual sequential transmission (typically straight cut, as in what you get in bikes not a DSG type box)
The first four can have fully automatic mode and/or semi automatic modes; the latter two generally only have manual modes.
Edited by kambites on Friday 30th December 13:47
e8_pack said:
After seven pages of interesting debate on another section of the forum, i've brought this question to the great unwashed of PH.
This may come down to ones perception on how you view gear selection. Is the act of selecting the gear deemed manual or the mechanism to undertake it? is the use of a clutch and positioning of the stick the defining moment or the point at which you decide to up/down shift and flick the lever.
Manual modes on double clutch boxes can be programmed to bounce of the limiter, just like a manual, but they won't let you stall - is that such a bad thing?
Is diverting your eyes away from the road to check the gear position readout worse than moving your hand?
Discuss.
Legally speaking, it's very straightforward. Count the pedals. If there are two, it's good to drive on an auto-only licence.This may come down to ones perception on how you view gear selection. Is the act of selecting the gear deemed manual or the mechanism to undertake it? is the use of a clutch and positioning of the stick the defining moment or the point at which you decide to up/down shift and flick the lever.
Manual modes on double clutch boxes can be programmed to bounce of the limiter, just like a manual, but they won't let you stall - is that such a bad thing?
Is diverting your eyes away from the road to check the gear position readout worse than moving your hand?
Discuss.
Contigo said:
Legally, for driving licence purposes, it's the presence or absence of a clutch pedal that determines which licence you need.
Your insurance company may have additional requirements though.
though an e46 smg has no clutch pedal but is deemed, legally, as a manual i believe.Your insurance company may have additional requirements though.
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