Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?

[ModernAndy]

TonyTony said:

No clutch pedal = not a manual..

I would go along with that but something which is 'not manual' isn't necessarily 'automatic' for the purposes of a driving licence I would guess.

[kambites]

manracer said:

though an e46 smg has no clutch pedal but is deemed, legally, as a manual i believe.

You can drive an E46 SMG on an automatic only licence in the UK. The definition as far as the DVLA are concerned is purely down to where there's a manually actuated clutch.

DVLA said:

“vehicle with automatic transmission” means a class of vehicle in which either—
(a) the driver is not provided with any means whereby he may vary the gear ratio between
the engine and the road wheels independently of the accelerator and the brakes, or
(b) he is provided with such means but they do not include a clutch pedal or lever which
he may operate manually,

Edited by kambites on Friday 30th December 14:09

[culpz]

PositronicRay said:

My new yrs resolution will be to not post rude or irrelevant stuff on PH.

I may as well get some practice in.

I need to give this a go myself. Oh, will you look at that, already on page 2...

I think i'm doing it wrong

[kambites]

culpz said:

I need to give this a go myself. Oh, will you look at that, already on page 2...

I think i'm doing it wrong

To be fair, so far it's consisted largely of people actually having a reasoned discussion rather than shouting their own point of view as loudly as possible...

... I'm sure it wont last.

[manracer]

Contigo said:

By whom? BMW? DVLA? I doubt the latter. Some may be registered on V5C as manual but the majority will be auto.

we were told it was due to the smg not holding the car on a hill or something, was many years ago mind, but i thought the M in SMG meant manual?

Edited by manracer on Friday 30th December 14:22

[TonyTony]

ModernAndy said:

I would go along with that but something which is 'not manual' isn't necessarily 'automatic' for the purposes of a driving licence I would guess.

I guess something like a Bac Mono with a sequential gearbox would be classed as a manual because it has a clutch to set off.

Whenever this discussion comes up it seems to be aimed at DSG/robotised manuals without clutches though, which are clearly automatics.

[Alex_225]

Learn2MergeInTurn said:

No clutch pedal = automatic

That would be my take on it as well. Otherwise I'd include my CLS as a manual because it has paddles. It's essentially an automatic which I can tell when to change gear.

Same goes for a dual clutch auto, you're just telling an auto box when to change.

[delta0]

ModernAndy said:

does anybody have any idea if the 'semi-auto' cars you used to get can be driven on an automatic only driving licence? Pic below (no clutch pedal)

Auto license holders can drive semi automatics. No clutch pedal means auto license is ok.

[ModernAndy]

TonyTony said:

I guess something like a Bac Mono with a sequential gearbox would be classed as a manual because it has a clutch to set off.

100%. They are most definitely a type of manual box.

[culpz]

kambites said:

To be fair, so far it's consisted largely of people actually having a reasoned discussion rather than shouting their own point of view as loudly as possible...

... I'm sure it wont last.

I'm happy with that in all fairness. This is a forum at the end of the day so it's good to have discussions. It's just sad to see so many of them end in tears.

I'm not one to tar everything with the same brush so i could stand corrected. I sincerely hope that's the case...

[anonymous-user]

Dual clutch is a red herring. An auto is an auto irrespective of which specific oily bits are inside the transmission.

What would really put the cat among the pigeons is a flappy-paddle gearbox with a clutch pedal! IIRC such a creature has never existed.

Closest thing were "pre-select gearboxes" in the early days of the motor industry. A gear is chosen manually but that gear does not engage unless and until a foot pedal is activated. However, the pedal generally a brake and not a clutch. In other words, the transmission is epicyclic (like a normal auto with all gears constantly meshed) and the gear shift occurs when a brake band in the transmission is engaged by the pedal.

[kambites]

rockin said:

What would really put the cat among the pigeons is a flappy-paddle gearbox with a clutch pedal! IIRC such a creature has never existed.

They're pretty common on bike-engined kit/track cars.

[e8_pack]

kambites said:

rockin said:

What would really put the cat among the pigeons is a flappy-paddle gearbox with a clutch pedal! IIRC such a creature has never existed.

They're pretty common on bike-engined kit/track cars.

I was just about to say that seeing as I own one, can set it to auto shift too.

[anonymous-user]

Alex_225 said:

Learn2MergeInTurn said:

No clutch pedal = automatic

That would be my take on it as well. Otherwise I'd include my CLS as a manual because it has paddles. It's essentially an automatic which I can tell when to change gear.

Same goes for a dual clutch auto, you're just telling an auto box when to change.

Nail on the head sir

[thegreenhell]

Does nobody refer to these things as semi-automatic anymore? At least the Yanks get around this semantic argument by referring to it as 'stick', as in "can you drive stick?"

Conscript said:

In my opinion, the definition should actually be based around the clutch.

When I talk about a "manual gearbox", what I (and I reckon, a good proportion of people) actually mean, is a manually operated clutch.
I wouldn't really consider a dual clutch, with two pedals a "manual"; even though it technically allows manual changing of gears, the actual mechanism of disengagement is controlled automatically.

I agree with the sentiment, but the pedant in me would like point out the definition of manual is hand-operated, so the clutch you refer to would be pedal (foot) operated.

[donkmeister]

kambites said:

I think the best terms for the actual hardware we generally see in vehicles would be:

Automated epicyclic torque-converter transmission
Automated continuously variable transmission
Automated single-clutch helical transmission
Automated double-clutch helical transmission
Manual H-pattern helical transmission
Manual sequential transmission (typically straight cut, as in what you get in bikes not a DSG type box)

Automated epicyclic wet-clutch transmission - this is what is found in AMG models with MCT.
I suppose if we're talking about the cut of the gears we could go into single-plate/multiplate dry/wet clutches, then there are the multi-input trannies for hybrids etc
/pedant (sorry!)

[TooMany2cvs]

kambites said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Legally speaking, it's very straightforward. Count the pedals. If there are two, it's good to drive on an auto-only licence.

The pendent in me wants to point out that's not strictly true - a hand clutch counts as a manual.

If you're going to be a pendant, then floor-hinged pedals count, too...

[hondafanatic]

Learn2MergeInTurn said:

Alex_225 said:

Learn2MergeInTurn said:

No clutch pedal = automatic

That would be my take on it as well. Otherwise I'd include my CLS as a manual because it has paddles. It's essentially an automatic which I can tell when to change gear.

Same goes for a dual clutch auto, you're just telling an auto box when to change.

Nail on the head sir

Agreed - and to add to this, when Alex uses the phrase 'an automatic which I can tell when to change gear' isn't strictly true. It won't let you change outside of fixed parameters. In a manual, I can change from flat out in 5th in to second and expect a plume of white smoke in my rear view mirror. In a DSG or equivalent it won't let me to that... It'll also not let me pull away in sixth... They're autos. Not full manuals. I'm aware that reverse isn't selectable in some manuals when you're driving forward, but that, to me, is just a mechanical safety system... I can still mis-shift and blow the engine in a manual. I don't think I could in my DSG equipped car because it won't allow me to mis-shift.

All imho

[MG CHRIS]

ModernAndy said:

TonyTony said:

No clutch pedal = not a manual..

I would go along with that but something which is 'not manual' isn't necessarily 'automatic' for the purposes of a driving licence I would guess.

But you can have a manual with a gearstick without a clutch pedal is that an automatic or manual.

[thegreenhell]

kambites said:

I think the best terms for the actual hardware we generally see in vehicles would be:

Automated epicyclic torque-converter transmission
Automated continuously variable transmission
Automated single-clutch helical transmission
Automated double-clutch helical transmission
Manual H-pattern helical transmission
Manual sequential transmission (typically straight cut, as in what you get in bikes not a DSG type box)


The first four can have fully automatic mode and/or semi automatic modes; the latter two generally only have manual modes.

When you say 'helical transmission' you just mean a constant-mesh spur gear transmission. Among these types, DSG is a three-shaft transmission, the others two-shaft. The cut of the spur gears themselves, whether helical or straight cut, is irrelevant to the configuration or operation of the transmission in this context.

'Automated single-clutch' and 'manual h-pattern' are usually essentially the same gearbox, with the former also known as a robotised manual, such as Ferrari's 'F1' shift, BMW SMG and the Alfa Selespeed. In these cases the same clutch and gear selectors are simply operated by computer-controlled hydraulic or electromagnetic actuators. Everything inside the gearbox housing is the same, however actuated.

It would be theoretically possible, if rather pointless, to make a fully manual DSG/PDK gearbox, although the mechanism would have to synchronise two almost-simultaneous shifting operations with one shift movement, manually disengaging the gear from one shaft while engaging the next gear on a different shaft.