Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?

[thegreenhell]

MG CHRIS said:

ModernAndy said:

TonyTony said:

No clutch pedal = not a manual..

I would go along with that but something which is 'not manual' isn't necessarily 'automatic' for the purposes of a driving licence I would guess.

But you can have a manual with a gearstick without a clutch pedal is that an automatic or manual.

Porsche Sportomatic - manual or auto?

It had a 'manual' 4-speed H-pattern lever for selecting gears but no clutch pedal. It had a conventional clutch which was automated and pneumatically actuated, but it also had a torque converter and separate parking lock. There was no automatic shifting function, just an automatic clutch.

[delta0]

MG CHRIS said:

But you can have a manual with a gearstick without a clutch pedal is that an automatic or manual.

Legally that would be an auto. An auto license holder could drive it.

[jamoor]

All it needs is the absence of a clutch pedal.

A tesla doesn't even have a gearbox.

[red_slr]

"Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?"

No. As you have no clutch.

For me a true "automatic" is a torque convertor type setup.

After that (in my books you have)

Variable (all types)
Dual Clutch
Sequential (motorcycle derived i.e N between 1st and 2nd)
Sequential (motorsport derived)
Robotic Manual (355, Lambo etc)
Manual
Pre selector (sometimes seen on 1950s/1960s vehicles)

To put your question the other way, if you change gear without the clutch on a manual trans is it now an automatic? .....

[braddo]

thegreenhell said:

It would be theoretically possible, if rather pointless, to make a fully manual DSG/PDK gearbox, although the mechanism would have to synchronise two almost-simultaneous shifting operations with one shift movement, manually disengaging the gear from one shaft while engaging the next gear on a different shaft.

Is this actually feasible, to make a manual gearbox out of a modern dual-clutch gearbox?

Could one really work with a foot pedal to control clutch action and a gearlever which physically moves gears around in the gearbox?

I suspect not. These dual clutch gearboxes are designed from the outset to be automatics. They are not robotised manuals, they are automatics which happen to use similar internal hardware to manuals, but which cannot be converted to be a manual gearbox.

[GroundEffect]

xjay1337 said:

A dual clutch / DSG IS a manual gearbox.

However it is a hydro-electric actuated manual gearbox.

I wouldn't class them as a manual, even if they are technically.

No they're not. By every normal definition they are automatics. Epicyclics don't have a monopoly on autos.

DCTs are true autos. They have every feature of one.

[anonymous-user]

Very obviously you could have, say, a four speed gearbox with all the gears permanently meshed and four clutch pedals with which to engage drive as and when required. Congratulations, you've just invented a conventional automatic transmission but somehow forgotten the "automatic" bit!

To suggest that a PDK isn't an auto would be very odd. There are many ways of achieving automatically changed ratios without driver involvement and PDK just happens to be one of them. Variomatic is simply another.

[blueg33]

xRIEx said:

e8_pack said:

Is the act of selecting the gear deemed manual or the mechanism to undertake it? is the use of a clutch and positioning of the stick the defining moment or the point at which you decide to up/down shift and flick the lever.

There are multiple contexts in which to frame the question (and answer):

- in relation to a driving licence (i.e. restricted to auto only) then the deciding factor is whether there is a clutch pedal or not;

- in relation to the design of the gearbox, a "manual" transmission design would have pairs of constant-mesh helical gears with each gear being engaged by a dog clutch; "automatic" transmissions would have epicyclic gears controlled by plate clutch packs (I think - maybe other solutions too). Double-clutch transmissions in particular have muddied/merged these definitions in recent times. I suppose there's no real prohibition (apart from not being the best cheapest solution to the problem at hand) why a constant mesh gearbox couldn't be solely changed by automated means, and an epicyclic gearbox being changed solely by manual means (disregarding clutch operation at this stage);

- in relation to how the driver actually interacts with the gearbox: if the driver has to initiate an action for the gearbox to change gear, then it's a manual (or in manual mode); if the gearbox can do it itself then it's an auto (or in auto mode).

Each context has its own merit depending on the point of view or discussion at hand.

e8_pack said:

Is diverting your eyes away from the road to check the gear position readout worse than moving your hand?

I can't remember ever having to do this. In cars that have a gear lever gaiter you can't necessarily tell by looking at the lever which gear it's in. It's easier to learn a vague idea of the revs:speed ratio of the gears and go from that, or even completely disregarding knowing which gear you're in, change down if you need more acceleration and change up if you want to drop the engine revs at your current speed.

This is by far the best summary.

For me its mainly about how the driver interacts with the gearbox, does he/she choose the gears or is the decision out of the drivers hands, or overruled?

Until recently, for sport cars I was a died in the wool, stick shift with clutch pedal supporter. With the latest paddle shift boxes, I am less sure, they seem to deliver the best of both worlds. Auto when sat in a traffic jam, fast changing manual when on a B road blast or on track

[Whaleblue]

First, Happy New Year!

As a contributor to the thread mentioned in the OP, I'd just say...

Call it what you like, I think the PDK is the best gearbox ever invented, allowing a perfect combination of automation with the ability for the driver to have a significant say in matters as and when required. End of.

Whether any forum member prefers a traditional manual gearbox to this (or any other design) is purely personal.

No right or wrong in the choice, and fairly meaningless to argue over the terminology when every poster actually fully comprehends what each of the boxes do.

[northwestrecover]

I hate dct and will never have or want one ,some people love them because they can't drive /missed gears ,stall ect and it makes them look good and they all hate them when they get a 5 grand bill to fix it when it breaks .

[Jimmy Recard]

thegreenhell said:

MG CHRIS said:

ModernAndy said:

TonyTony said:

No clutch pedal = not a manual..

I would go along with that but something which is 'not manual' isn't necessarily 'automatic' for the purposes of a driving licence I would guess.

But you can have a manual with a gearstick without a clutch pedal is that an automatic or manual.

Porsche Sportomatic - manual or auto?

It had a 'manual' 4-speed H-pattern lever for selecting gears but no clutch pedal. It had a conventional clutch which was automated and pneumatically actuated, but it also had a torque converter and separate parking lock. There was no automatic shifting function, just an automatic clutch.

Saab Sensonic would be another good example. Normal manual gearlever:


But you don't have a clutch pedal:

Edited by Jimmy Recard on Sunday 1st January 01:51

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Contigo said:

Legally, for driving licence purposes, it's the presence or absence of a clutch pedal that determines which licence you need.

Your insurance company may have additional requirements though.

No insurance company has any additional requirements. 2 pedals = auto.

[anonymous-user]

hondafanatic said:

Learn2MergeInTurn said:

Alex_225 said:

Learn2MergeInTurn said:

No clutch pedal = automatic

That would be my take on it as well. Otherwise I'd include my CLS as a manual because it has paddles. It's essentially an automatic which I can tell when to change gear.

Same goes for a dual clutch auto, you're just telling an auto box when to change.

Nail on the head sir

Agreed - and to add to this, when Alex uses the phrase 'an automatic which I can tell when to change gear' isn't strictly true. It won't let you change outside of fixed parameters. In a manual, I can change from flat out in 5th in to second and expect a plume of white smoke in my rear view mirror. In a DSG or equivalent it won't let me to that... It'll also not let me pull away in sixth... They're autos. Not full manuals. I'm aware that reverse isn't selectable in some manuals when you're driving forward, but that, to me, is just a mechanical safety system... I can still mis-shift and blow the engine in a manual. I don't think I could in my DSG equipped car because it won't allow me to mis-shift.

All imho

Yep, agree with you. Its clearly automatic if you don't blow the fker up down shifting to second at 110mph

It wont go into park or reverse, where as in my manual I could smash it into reverse if I really wanted too

[Dave Hedgehog]

jamoor said:

All it needs is the absence of a clutch pedal.

A tesla doesn't even have a gearbox.

saab made a manual with no clutch, pfft already posted ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi1HUik7yIE

[Howard-]

Two pedals = automatic. It's that simple. You can call a DCT a "semi automatic" or "robotised manual" all you like, but it's an automatic gearbox which happens to have internals that resemble that of a manual gearbox.

An autobox in manual mode is still an autobox. Most have manual overrides nowadays.

If it has two pedals but you manually select the gear (e.g. the Saab above), then it is a semi automatic and I'm 99% certain you can drive one on an automatic-only license.

Edited by Howard- on Sunday 1st January 10:47

Edited by Howard- on Sunday 1st January 10:48

[blueg33]

Its still daft semantics really. If the driver is choosing the gear then as far as the way the car drives goes, its manual whether gears are selected by a stick, a paddle. Its really the clutch operation that is that is the defining element.

[Howard-]

blueg33 said:

Its still daft semantics really. If the driver is choosing the gear then as far as the way the car drives goes, its manual whether gears are selected by a stick, a paddle. Its really the clutch operation that is that is the defining element.

It's not daft, really. It's quite simple actually:

Two pedals, 'D' mode: Automatic. The presence of a gear shift override option is irrelevant.

Two pedals, numbers on the shifter, no 'D' mode: Semi-automatic.

Three pedals: Manual.

That's all there is to it.

[blueg33]

Howard- said:

blueg33 said:

Its still daft semantics really. If the driver is choosing the gear then as far as the way the car drives goes, its manual whether gears are selected by a stick, a paddle. Its really the clutch operation that is that is the defining element.

It's not daft, really. It's quite simple actually:

Two pedals, 'D' mode: Automatic. The presence of a gear shift override option is irrelevant.

Two pedals, numbers on the shifter, no 'D' mode: Semi-automatic.

Three pedals: Manual.

That's all there is to it.

You missed the point. In terms of gears, if the driver has control really its manual, its the clutch operation that is automatic. Cars with auto clutches are described as having auto gearboxes and that's not strictly correct.

Dictionary definition of manual, is operated or done by hands, ie stick or paddle. The thing with gearboxes is that it has been decided that manual means mechanical and that's not exactly the same thing

[Howard-]

blueg33 said:

You missed the point. In terms of gears, if the driver has control really its manual, its the clutch operation that is automatic. Cars with auto clutches are described as having auto gearboxes and that's not strictly correct.

Dictionary definition of manual, is operated or done by hands, ie stick or paddle. The thing with gearboxes is that it has been decided that manual means mechanical and that's not exactly the same thing

So is a torque converter gearbox with a manual override a manual too?

[xRIEx]

Howard- said:

blueg33 said:

You missed the point. In terms of gears, if the driver has control really its manual, its the clutch operation that is automatic. Cars with auto clutches are described as having auto gearboxes and that's not strictly correct.

Dictionary definition of manual, is operated or done by hands, ie stick or paddle. The thing with gearboxes is that it has been decided that manual means mechanical and that's not exactly the same thing

So is a torque converter gearbox with a manual override a manual too?

Sometimes it is, arguably.


It's a good point of blue's that hasn't really been touched on: there are two separate bits which could each (independently) be manual or automatic: the gearbox could be manual or automatic, and the engine/gearbox connection (clutch(es) or TC) could be manual or automatic. The Porsche and Saab systems mentioned above are good examples of one less common permutation.

I suppose it's possible to have an automatically-shifting gearbox with a manual clutch, but we haven't seen one (to my knowledge) because there's no advantage over the other available solutions; it actually sounds like a ridiculous idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone had created a prototype just to check.