Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?

[TooMany2cvs]

xRIEx said:

I suppose it's possible to have an automatically-shifting gearbox with a manual clutch, but we haven't seen one (to my knowledge) because there's no advantage over the other available solutions; it actually sounds like a ridiculous idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone had created a prototype just to check.

PSA's EGS is exactly that.
http://www.citroenet.org.uk/passenger-cars/psa/c4/...

Don't forget that the manual-gearbox-with-automated-clutch goes back to at least the 1950s, the original DS hydraulic box. The box itself was the same as the manual, but had hydraulic linkages and clutch control.

[thegreenhell]

blueg33 said:

Howard- said:

blueg33 said:

Its still daft semantics really. If the driver is choosing the gear then as far as the way the car drives goes, its manual whether gears are selected by a stick, a paddle. Its really the clutch operation that is that is the defining element.

It's not daft, really. It's quite simple actually:

Two pedals, 'D' mode: Automatic. The presence of a gear shift override option is irrelevant.

Two pedals, numbers on the shifter, no 'D' mode: Semi-automatic.

Three pedals: Manual.

That's all there is to it.

You missed the point. In terms of gears, if the driver has control really its manual, its the clutch operation that is automatic. Cars with auto clutches are described as having auto gearboxes and that's not strictly correct.

Dictionary definition of manual, is operated or done by hands, ie stick or paddle. The thing with gearboxes is that it has been decided that manual means mechanical and that's not exactly the same thing

But with a paddle shift, when you 'manually' change gear it isn't really you that's changing the gear ratio in the transmission. You are just sending an electronic signal that the car should should change gear automatically. You are directly operating no mechanical parts whatsoever. All that the driver is really doing is the decision-making part of the automation process, ie deciding when the car should change gear rather than letting the computer decide.

If you want to bring dictionary definitions into it, the definition of automation is:

1. The technique, method, or system of operating or controlling a process by highly automatic means, as by electronic devices, reducing human intervention to a minimum. 2. a mechanical device, operated electronically, that functions automatically, without continuous input from an operator.

[Mr2Mike]

thegreenhell said:

But with a paddle shift, when you 'manually' change gear it isn't really you that's changing the gear ratio in the transmission. You are just sending an electronic signal that the car should should change gear automatically. You are directly operating no mechanical parts whatsoever. All that the driver is really doing is the decision-making part of the automation process, ie deciding when the car should change gear rather than letting the computer decide.

Exactly, the computer can override your request as well.

[xRIEx]

TooMany2cvs said:

xRIEx said:

I suppose it's possible to have an automatically-shifting gearbox with a manual clutch, but we haven't seen one (to my knowledge) because there's no advantage over the other available solutions; it actually sounds like a ridiculous idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone had created a prototype just to check.

PSA's EGS is exactly that.
http://www.citroenet.org.uk/passenger-cars/psa/c4/...

Don't forget that the manual-gearbox-with-automated-clutch goes back to at least the 1950s, the original DS hydraulic box. The box itself was the same as the manual, but had hydraulic linkages and clutch control.

That article says it has an auto clutch ("the absence of the clutch pedal").

[TooMany2cvs]

xRIEx said:

That article says it has an auto clutch ("the absence of the clutch pedal").

Doh. Sorry, hangover-induced brainfart.

[xRIEx]

TooMany2cvs said:

xRIEx said:

That article says it has an auto clutch ("the absence of the clutch pedal").

Doh. Sorry, hangover-induced brainfart.

No probs - hope you had a good night

[thegreenhell]

Thinking about it further, is not the term 'automatic' as misunderstood and misused as 'manual'? A DSG gearbox is automatic - whether the signal for it to change ratio is received from the human interface device (the paddle) or from the ECU, the physical process of changing the gear is automated. Pressing a button with a finger does not make it a manual process.

However, when you put a gearbox of any type, whether it be DSG, epicyclic or CVT, in D mode, such that the decision-making part of the process of changing the drive ratio is also taken over by the computer, then that gearbox becomes not only automatic but autonomous in its operation.

So when we're discussing whether a DSG in 'human-interface mode' is manual, we should really just conclude that it's a non-autonomous automatic.

[Fort Jefferson]

Learn2MergeInTurn said:

No clutch pedal = automatic

This, if it hasn't got a clutch pedal, you can drive it on an automatic licence.

BTW this has been done to death on here, every year, for ten years.

The oily bit's don't matter, what makers call them doesn't matter, if it is capable of changing automatically, it's an automatic.

[Mario149]

Mr2Mike said:

thegreenhell said:

But with a paddle shift, when you 'manually' change gear it isn't really you that's changing the gear ratio in the transmission. You are just sending an electronic signal that the car should should change gear automatically. You are directly operating no mechanical parts whatsoever. All that the driver is really doing is the decision-making part of the automation process, ie deciding when the car should change gear rather than letting the computer decide.

Exactly, the computer can override your request as well.

Playing devils advocate, it's certainly not beyond the wit of man to create a manual gearbox (clutch pedal with H pattern etc) that would physically prevent you downshifting if doing so would damage the gearbox i.e. denying your gear change request. Would that therefore be an auto since a computer or electro-mechanical system had the final say?

[RogerExplosion]

I tell people my car has an automatic manual just to be wker. No one cares.

[TurboHatchback]

To me it seems fairly clear, the answer is no. In a manual gearbox the parts are manually moved around by the drivers mechanical effort, in a dual clutch box they are moved around by electromechanical actuators, the driver just sends messages to the computer by operating switches. Legally it comes down to whether a clutch pedal is present but in a theoretical case where the clutch was computer controlled but the driver still physically moved the cogs around with a stick I would call that a manual (though the DVLA would not).

I don't understand why DSG drivers get so insecure about the terminology, driving an automatic doesn't make you any less of a driver or shrink your penis.

[xRIEx]

TurboHatchback said:

To me it seems fairly clear, the answer is no. In a manual gearbox the parts are manually moved around by the drivers mechanical effort, in a dual clutch box they are moved around by electromechanical actuators, the driver just sends messages to the computer by operating switches.

Also a good distinction.

However, on a slightly off-topic parallel example, using the same reasoning what about fly-by-wire throttles? The link between driver and throttle body is purely electro-mechanical and controlled by an ECU (and 'modified' by the computer, not even directly passed through) instead of a direct cable linkage, but we wouldn't say vehicles have automatic throttles.

[kambites]

I've quite often seen "manual throttle" used as a synonym for "cable throttle" although admittedly I've never seen "automatic throttle" used at all with respect to a car.

[Terminator X]

In manual mode mine will hit the rev limiter and stay there however it won't let you stall of course so still shifts down for you if revs drop too low.

TX.

[braddo]

xRIEx said:

Also a good distinction.

However, on a slightly off-topic parallel example, using the same reasoning what about fly-by-wire throttles? The link between driver and throttle body is purely electro-mechanical and controlled by an ECU (and 'modified' by the computer, not even directly passed through) instead of a direct cable linkage, but we wouldn't say vehicles have automatic throttles.

The analogy doesn't work because until we have autonomous cars, the throttle can't be fully automatic.

Whereas for an auto/DSG gearbox, the driver can select 'D' and all the gearchanging and clutch operation is done automatically.

[xRIEx]

braddo said:

xRIEx said:

Also a good distinction.

However, on a slightly off-topic parallel example, using the same reasoning what about fly-by-wire throttles? The link between driver and throttle body is purely electro-mechanical and controlled by an ECU (and 'modified' by the computer, not even directly passed through) instead of a direct cable linkage, but we wouldn't say vehicles have automatic throttles.

The analogy doesn't work because until we have autonomous cars, the throttle can't be fully automatic.

Whereas for an auto/DSG gearbox, the driver can select 'D' and all the gearchanging and clutch operation is done automatically.

That's my point.

[TooMany2cvs]

braddo said:

The analogy doesn't work because until we have autonomous cars, the throttle can't be fully automatic.

How about hybrids? The driver's pedal doesn't determine what the throttle on the ICE is doing. It tells the computers how fast the driver wants to go, and they determine what the engine's doing. Automatic throttle.

[SuperchargedVR6]

braddo said:

xRIEx said:

Also a good distinction.

However, on a slightly off-topic parallel example, using the same reasoning what about fly-by-wire throttles? The link between driver and throttle body is purely electro-mechanical and controlled by an ECU (and 'modified' by the computer, not even directly passed through) instead of a direct cable linkage, but we wouldn't say vehicles have automatic throttles.

The analogy doesn't work because until we have autonomous cars, the throttle can't be fully automatic.

Whereas for an auto/DSG gearbox, the driver can select 'D' and all the gearchanging and clutch operation is done automatically.

Then it should be called a dual mode transmission then, but this is still a semantics debate.

Thread title "Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?". Yes. The driver is commanding the gears manually. The clutch packs are the automated bit, then it should be called an automated clutch transmission, and on and on and on it goes.....

Another pointless analogy. The Volume knob on your AV amplifier. You can turn it by hand, or you can use the remote. So is that an automatic volume knob or a manual one?

Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Tuesday 3rd January 14:38

[kambites]

I think "semi-automatic" is a reasonable description (for the gearbox mode, not the volume control).

[RobM77]

What isn't debatable is that a dual clutch gearbox is very heavy compared to a standard traditional single clutch and gearbox setup...

ETA: Here are my own personal definitions, although these will of course vary between people:

H pattern manual: clutch pedal and a gearstick that can select any gear at any time.
Sequential manual: clutch pedal and a gearstick that moves the box up or down.
Pre-selector manual: clutch pedal and a gearstick with some extra mechanisms.
Roboticised manual: A manual gearbox, as above, with some element/s of it automated/motorised. I include double clutch gearboxes in this.
Automatic: A traditional torque converter automatic.

The grey area in the above list in my mind is whether a roboticised manual is an automatic gearbox or not. Personally I don't classify it as such. After all, many racing cars, mine included, are a sequential manual with a clutch pedal where the clutch pedal is only actually used to pull away from rest, but it's still a manual. An F1 GP lasts 90 minutes or more and in that whole time the clutch is only used at the start and in the pits, but in my opinion an F1 car still has a manual gearbox.

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 3rd January 15:03