Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?
Discussion
Mario149 said:
Playing devils advocate, it's certainly not beyond the wit of man to create a manual gearbox (clutch pedal with H pattern etc) that would physically prevent you downshifting if doing so would damage the gearbox i.e. denying your gear change request. Would that therefore be an auto since a computer or electro-mechanical system had the final say?
What would happen in that case would be different from a regular auto. It wouldn't be 'request denied', it would be you disengaging the power till you selected an appropriate gear or slowed down to the point where you could put it into the gear you wanted. That's very different to how an automatic gearbox allows you to move through the gears in manual mode.Is a conventional automatic gearbox when used in 'manual' mode transformed into a manual gearbox? Is there a distinction between a DCT and a slushbox in this sense, and if so why? Neither has a clutch pedal, and both can be driven in D mode or have the driver select gears by means of buttons/paddles on the steering wheel.
Is, for example, the ubiquitous ZF 8HP automatic transmission any different functionally to any DCT?
Is, for example, the ubiquitous ZF 8HP automatic transmission any different functionally to any DCT?
ModernAndy said:
Mario149 said:
Playing devils advocate, it's certainly not beyond the wit of man to create a manual gearbox (clutch pedal with H pattern etc) that would physically prevent you downshifting if doing so would damage the gearbox i.e. denying your gear change request. Would that therefore be an auto since a computer or electro-mechanical system had the final say?
What would happen in that case would be different from a regular auto. It wouldn't be 'request denied', it would be you disengaging the power till you selected an appropriate gear or slowed down to the point where you could put it into the gear you wanted. That's very different to how an automatic gearbox allows you to move through the gears in manual mode.ModernAndy said:
Mario149 said:
Playing devils advocate, it's certainly not beyond the wit of man to create a manual gearbox (clutch pedal with H pattern etc) that would physically prevent you downshifting if doing so would damage the gearbox i.e. denying your gear change request. Would that therefore be an auto since a computer or electro-mechanical system had the final say?
What would happen in that case would be different from a regular auto. It wouldn't be 'request denied', it would be you disengaging the power till you selected an appropriate gear or slowed down to the point where you could put it into the gear you wanted. That's very different to how an automatic gearbox allows you to move through the gears in manual mode.Another hypothetical following the drive by wire comments: would an H pattern with a clutch still be a manual box if there was no physical connection between the gear lever and gearbox, and clutch pedal and clutch? i.e. what if you selecting a gear on the H pattern or depressing the clutch pedal simply sent a signal to a computer which then selected gear and moved the clutch according to what gear you had selected and how far you'd pressed the pedal. Would that still be a manual? And if that was still manual, would the addition of the computer refusing to engage a gear to prevent engine damage then make in an auto?
The point I'm trying to make is that, as someone who owns manual, PDK, 2 pedal BMW SMG and 3 pedal sequential dogbox manual cars is: depending on what mode the PDK/SMG is in, I consider it a manual or automatic. If I'm selecting the gears (even if the car can deny the change request), it's a manual at that point. The fact that there's a safety net to stop me damaging the gearbox/engine is neither here nor there, I'm still in control until I ask it to do something I shouldn't be asking it to do. If that constitutes making a gearbox automatic, then you'd have to say ABS was an automatic braking system.
Now, all of the above is completely separate from whether a manual/auto box (however defined) is a more involving/better/faster/whatever drive.
Mario149 said:
That's the thing, I'm not talking about a regular auto (torque converter). I'm talking about DSG/PDK/SMG setups. Some are saying they are not manuals because they will stop you doing a damaging gear change. The implication being that if you can't destroy the gearbox/engine with a duff change, it therefore follows it must be an automatic. My point was that it would be easy to use that criteria to call an H pattern with clutch an auto simply because it had a mechanism to prevent you lunching the mechanicals.
Another hypothetical following the drive by wire comments: would an H pattern with a clutch still be a manual box if there was no physical connection between the gear lever and gearbox, and clutch pedal and clutch? i.e. what if you selecting a gear on the H pattern or depressing the clutch pedal simply sent a signal to a computer which then selected gear and moved the clutch according to what gear you had selected and how far you'd pressed the pedal. Would that still be a manual? And if that was still manual, would the addition of the computer refusing to engage a gear to prevent engine damage then make in an auto?
The point I'm trying to make is that, as someone who owns manual, PDK, 2 pedal BMW SMG and 3 pedal sequential dogbox manual cars is: depending on what mode the PDK/SMG is in, I consider it a manual or automatic. If I'm selecting the gears (even if the car can deny the change request), it's a manual at that point. The fact that there's a safety net to stop me damaging the gearbox/engine is neither here nor there, I'm still in control until I ask it to do something I shouldn't be asking it to do. If that constitutes making a gearbox automatic, then you'd have to say ABS was an automatic braking system.
Now, all of the above is completely separate from whether a manual/auto box (however defined) is a more involving/better/faster/whatever drive.
Ah, understood. No clutch pedal on those though which I would say precludes them from ticking all the boxes for being considered a manual.Another hypothetical following the drive by wire comments: would an H pattern with a clutch still be a manual box if there was no physical connection between the gear lever and gearbox, and clutch pedal and clutch? i.e. what if you selecting a gear on the H pattern or depressing the clutch pedal simply sent a signal to a computer which then selected gear and moved the clutch according to what gear you had selected and how far you'd pressed the pedal. Would that still be a manual? And if that was still manual, would the addition of the computer refusing to engage a gear to prevent engine damage then make in an auto?
The point I'm trying to make is that, as someone who owns manual, PDK, 2 pedal BMW SMG and 3 pedal sequential dogbox manual cars is: depending on what mode the PDK/SMG is in, I consider it a manual or automatic. If I'm selecting the gears (even if the car can deny the change request), it's a manual at that point. The fact that there's a safety net to stop me damaging the gearbox/engine is neither here nor there, I'm still in control until I ask it to do something I shouldn't be asking it to do. If that constitutes making a gearbox automatic, then you'd have to say ABS was an automatic braking system.
Now, all of the above is completely separate from whether a manual/auto box (however defined) is a more involving/better/faster/whatever drive.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Then it should be called a dual mode transmission then, but this is still a semantics debate.
Thread title "Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?". Yes. The driver is commanding the gears manually.
It's not semantics at all. 'Commanding' the gears is completely different. It's just choosing gears in an automatic box, just like people have been able to do for decades in torque converter autos.Thread title "Are dual clutch gearboxes in manual mode a manual?". Yes. The driver is commanding the gears manually.
Dual clutch gearboxes are capable of being an auto and were designed from the outset to be one. That makes it an auto!
A typical manual gearbox means you are physically moving the gears around via a lever, and you are controlling the clutch with your foot (or hand). Talking about sequentials or old-tech robotised manuals, or hypothetical combinations, is just a distraction that people want to use to pretend dual clutch gearboxes are manual gearboxes.
This is definitely a topic that gets over-complicated every time. There's also too much use of the word "technically" which seems to confuse the situation.
There are many different variations of an automatic gearbox, but they're still automatics regardless. DSG is the confusing factor as "technically" it's a manual. I'm not sure how the rest of it goes or how it's explained but, if you're using a DSG in manual mode, all you're doing is just taking control of the gear-change using the paddles on an automatic car. The car is still ultimately an automatic though.
There are many different variations of an automatic gearbox, but they're still automatics regardless. DSG is the confusing factor as "technically" it's a manual. I'm not sure how the rest of it goes or how it's explained but, if you're using a DSG in manual mode, all you're doing is just taking control of the gear-change using the paddles on an automatic car. The car is still ultimately an automatic though.
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