- The riddle pf the Toyota GT86- the car for purist drivers.

[Conscript]

rallycross said:

The simple answer is probably just no mega cheap lease deals.
Dig more deeply and for a proper petrol head the car is flawed by feeling gutless, the performance somehow lets it down.

You'd have to drive one for a few days ( I hired one for 5 days )and was left unimpressed, frustratingly gutless engine which sounds like a hairdryer, I hoping for something that would give me the same fun as my old Integra type R Dc2 but sadly not - much as I really wanted to like it. ( note I am used to driving low powered cars so it's not a case of me expecting it to be a rocket ship that's not what I expected).

Oh. I kind of thought of myself as a proper petrolhead, love driving for driving's sake and enjoying the feel of the car rather than the outright speed. I guess I'm not though I've had mine for 3 years now and still love it and at the moment, I can't think of anything I'd like to replace it with.

[Moonpie21]

I looked at a GT86 when thinking of a new car and my colleague has a BRZ. The reason I didn't chose it was lack of functionality, it was picked up on earlier, because for a driver around 6ft there is two shades of useless room behind them. I ended up going for an A-class because in a work daily I needed four seats and a boot.

I don't think it's slow or under powered, my old 98 328 msport had around 200bhp and at the time that was a good number and I dare say more than sufficient for most daily driving needs, even today.

The other reason being is I already have a MK1 NA MX-5 which is just as impractical, smaller, lighter as/if not more fun to drive and convertible for those sunny days. This cost a fraction of the price, I keep it in the garage and take it out when I want to feel like I am driving.

Just guessing but the GT86/BRZ would probably struggle against a diesel Golf at the same price and the MX-5 is nowhere near, but that's not really the point of them. Most people can't keep two cars or for one car to be mostly impractical so they don't get chosen.

I think it is close but a miss for those reasons.

Now the car that excited me the most in that kind of coupe arena was Connaught's Type D Syracuse GT V10 but then again, if it still/ever truly existed, it was too expensive for me.

[kambites]

I think another issue is that there's a strong correlation between people who value driver interaction over straight line performance and the people who are quite happy running older cars.

[Hitch]

I like the GT86 but for me it was always just too expensive for the power. I know it's 'not about the power' (I've enjoyed many a slow car!) but a touch more power or a touch less price might have made it a bigger seller. The deal just didn't stack up.

I know the NC MX5 was similar in output but with that you get the option to drop the roof which adds a very different experience to the ownership prospect. A two seater convertible GT86 could have been a great car and I followed the rumours with interest.

[Truckosaurus]

kambites said:

I think another issue is that there's a strong correlation between people who value driver interaction over straight line performance and the people who are quite happy running older cars.

Indeed. I suspect that the GT86/BRZ will be a cult car in the future once it is cheap enough to be a 2nd car/track day warrior (much like how E36 coupes are treated today).

I wonder how GT86 sales compare to sales of the last iteration of the Celica which was similarly low powered and not even RWD.

[tankplanker]

On a whim I organised a test drive in a GT86 earlier in the week, took one phone call and I was driving it an hour later, so at least my local Toyota dealer is helpful. I drove the pre facelift model with the full aero kit, its a bit ricer for me with that kit on but that was their current demostrator. Compared to our 2l ND MX-5 I can tell the GT86 has more power, the cabin is obviously more spacious and has more steering feel.

I wouldn't buy a GT86 to replace our MX-5 but I would consider buying one to go along side the MX-5 as it is a similar ethos, low weight and an emphasis on carrying momentum rather than booting it out of corners. For the money, other than the MX-5 what every day performance car is actually lighter?

A big part of the problem with the GT86 and to an extent with the MX-5 is that they have been designed as a platform for the owner to modfiy and modifying cars doesn't seem as popular as it once was in this country. I watched a video by Matt Farah were he talked to a Subaru tuner who stated that the 2l in the GT86/BRZ has more potential than the 2.5l from the Impreza.

A second hand GT86 at £12k fitted with either the Litchfield Supercharger kit or the Fensport Turbo kit and some decent tyres would make fantastic value. You'd have something close to a Cayman S in terms of performance and handling for a fraction of the purchase and running costs.

I was told that the GT86 was made as a four seater as this lowered the insurance group in some countries, not sure how true this is.

[RobM77]

Plus of course the engine doesn't really have much character. I can't think of an off the shelf engine that Toyota could use that would attract more buyers though, and if they designed one from scratch we'd be looking at a £40k car, which would sell in even fewer numbers. If they used the 3.5 V6, then it would really be a different sort of car, a reborn Supra.

[cj2013]

I think it struggled because they're just not widely desirable.

If you're going to drive a raw car with somewhat 'raw' performance, you'd need to at least have the styling accommodate that with a generous appearance.

Nothing really about it was a nod to the Trueno or the Levin, except in perhaps the name and driving characteristics, and I expect that was because they made some sort of compromise with Subaru when copying and pasting the styling over. It just looks like some sort of Lexus coupe with regards to styling, so it was never going to be universally lusted after (although I concede that a minority may think it's sliced bread).


The RX8 had a lot more innovation and appeal which helped sales at the time and masked the reliability issues which has been culling them on the used market.

[RobM77]

This thread is convincing me more and more than the GT86 is my ideal car I hate showy looks, I love driving and care little about performance, I don't like loads of grip in a car, and I like Toyotas. I'm also not that bothered about what engine's in a car. It's almost like someone designed it for me! And therein lies the problem, even on PH I'm painfully aware of how much of a minority I'm in with those preferences.

[ecsrobin]

tankplanker said:

For the money, other than the MX-5 what every day performance car is actually lighter?

Although a hot hatch my Abarth 595 is 1070kg quicker and £4K cheaper and has 4 useable seats.

It comes down to it every time the Gt86 price was just too high to any of its competition.

[Richyvrlimited]

dxg said:

And now that stories of the engine being weak are starting to emerge, and think it's fate s sealed.

I've read very few, certainly read of more failures of MX5 engines which have the reputation of being extremely strong.

[fushion julz]

Escort3500 said:

So's the MX5 but that doesn't stop it selling well. Maybe it's a design thing; the MX5 is better looking.

The MX5 wins (for me) as it is a drop-top...there are many (many) better rwd cars that are cheaper, faster and more fun than the GT86/BRZ whilst coming with the bonus of 4 seats!

[kambites]

tankplanker said:

For the money, other than the MX-5 what every day performance car is actually lighter?

These days there's depressingly few small sports cars full stop. Obviously there's the Fiat 124 if you count that as a separate car to the MX5.

Edited by kambites on Friday 13th January 09:40

[tankplanker]

ecsrobin said:

Although a hot hatch my Abarth 595 is 1070kg quicker and £4K cheaper and has 4 useable seats.

It comes down to it every time the Gt86 price was just too high to any of its competition.

I didn't realise those were so light, I'd dispute that it'd be quicker than the GT86 for anything other than a straight line though. I need to drive one as it usually gets put behind the Fiesta ST, Cooper S, etc. in terms of quality of driving experience by the magazines so I need to see myself.

[Vaud]

The MX5 (in all versions) feels fast as well, a bit like an old school mini. Lot of fun at lower speeds, because it feels like you are going quickly.

[kambites]

tankplanker said:

didn't realise those were so light, I'd dispute that it'd be quicker than the GT86 for anything other than a straight line though. I need to drive one as it usually gets put behind the Fiesta ST, Cooper S, etc. in terms of quality of driving experience by the magazines so I need to see myself.

I'd imagine the Fiesta ST and Mini Cooper S are both considerably lighter than the GT86 too? Front-engined RWD cars are always going to have a bit of a disadvantage over transverse engined ones in that regard. Even something like the Octavia VRS is only 100kg heavier.

[ecsrobin]

tankplanker said:

ecsrobin said:

Although a hot hatch my Abarth 595 is 1070kg quicker and £4K cheaper and has 4 useable seats.

It comes down to it every time the Gt86 price was just too high to any of its competition.

I didn't realise those were so light, I'd dispute that it'd be quicker than the GT86 for anything other than a straight line though. I need to drive one as it usually gets put behind the Fiesta ST, Cooper S, etc. in terms of quality of driving experience by the magazines so I need to see myself.

And that's the heavy version! The lower versions are 1035kg. It flies round corners helped by the mechanical LSD (not fitted in all models)

Evo scored the 595, ST and Cooper all 4/5 overall.

[fushion julz]

A car doesn't have to be "fast" to be fun or make it into my garage...After all, 99% of the miles I drive are on UK roads that are speed restricted and overly congested...

I have a BMW E46 330i SE Touring (manual)...it was cheap to buy, cheap to run (other than the fuel) and is a great everyday car, motorway mile-muncher and occasional caravan tower. The space means I can carry either lots of people or lots of stuff and sometimes both.

I have a MX5 Mk1 (NA) 1.6...bought cheaply and also very cheap to run. Great for sunny days and for a bit of a laugh if driving cross-country without the need to carry much stuff.

Also have a BMW E30 M3...my track toy that is turning out to be a solid investment as well...despite costing a fair bit to maintain.

None are outrageously powerful or fast, but all are fun and useable.

I used to own a Nissan 200sx S13...least practical car ever! The GT86 seems (to me) to be a current version of that, but without the good looks!

[Moonpie21]

tankplanker said:

didn't realise those were so light, I'd dispute that it'd be quicker than the GT86 for anything other than a straight line though. I need to drive one as it usually gets put behind the Fiesta ST, Cooper S, etc. in terms of quality of driving experience by the magazines so I need to see myself.

Although not an Abarth I much preferred as a drive the twinair 500s I owned over the Mk1 Bini One (remapped to cooper) I had, more space too although the new mini's have been swelling in size so I doubt this is true anymore. I am always jealous when I see 500 Abarth variant as I think I'd quite enjoy one.

[Samjeev]

battered said:

The GT86 is the only modern car other than the F type that has made me stop and say "wow" in the last 5 years. All the hot/warm hatches and German midrange saloons are "ho hum" in comparison.

I still want one, when the prices drop I and a good few others will be all over them.

This.
I'd like to pick up a used one (maybe even one thats been in a light accident to pick it up even cheaper) and save a few pennies so I can get a turbo kit for it.