- The riddle pf the Toyota GT86- the car for purist drivers.

[RobM77]

Jimmy Recard said:

MarshPhantom said:

Kambites is saying if he was 21 he'd spunk 11 grand on a GT86, I wouldn't. This is what I'd do instead.

And that's where I'm with you. It's a lot of money, not only for a 21 year old. If 21 year olds were rich, we'd see more Gt86s!

I don't know about everyone else, but aged 21, I just wanted to the fastest car I could afford, provided it handled pretty well and was fairly light. I don't think I was unusual for wanting that. The GT86 wouldn't have been a consideration for me, if cars had the power they do now. Nearly 20 years later, experience has reversed those priorities for me.

[Jimmy Recard]

God knows, I might be talking rubbish!

[RobM77]

Jimmy Recard said:

God knows, I might be talking rubbish!

So might I!

[Gary C]

RobM77 said:

Jimmy Recard said:

MarshPhantom said:

Kambites is saying if he was 21 he'd spunk 11 grand on a GT86, I wouldn't. This is what I'd do instead.

And that's where I'm with you. It's a lot of money, not only for a 21 year old. If 21 year olds were rich, we'd see more Gt86s!

I don't know about everyone else, but aged 21, I just wanted to the fastest car I could afford, provided it handled pretty well and was fairly light. I don't think I was unusual for wanting that. The GT86 wouldn't have been a consideration for me, if cars had the power they do now. Nearly 20 years later, experience has reversed those priorities for me.

When I was 21 the gt86 would have been a very fast and powerful car and I would have loved to have one (would have made a 3.0ltr Capri look really lame).

But more importantly I tended to look for rwd cars as the fwd hatchback storm arrived, not the fastest I could get.

Speed is relative. My 60hp polo is fast enough to have fun in, really!

Do I have more fun in my carrera, ok yes but that's not totally down to the power

[s m]

Gary C said:

RobM77 said:

Jimmy Recard said:

MarshPhantom said:

Kambites is saying if he was 21 he'd spunk 11 grand on a GT86, I wouldn't. This is what I'd do instead.

And that's where I'm with you. It's a lot of money, not only for a 21 year old. If 21 year olds were rich, we'd see more Gt86s!

I don't know about everyone else, but aged 21, I just wanted to the fastest car I could afford, provided it handled pretty well and was fairly light. I don't think I was unusual for wanting that. The GT86 wouldn't have been a consideration for me, if cars had the power they do now. Nearly 20 years later, experience has reversed those priorities for me.

When I was 21 the gt86 would have been a very fast and powerful car and I would have loved to have one (would have made a 3.0ltr Capri look really lame).

But more importantly I tended to look for rwd cars as the fwd hatchback storm arrived, not the fastest I could get.

Speed is relative. My 60hp polo is fast enough to have fun in, really!

Do I have more fun in my carrera, ok yes but that's not totally down to the power

When I was about 21 I bought a Manta GTE Coupe for £3300 ( about 9000 according to thisismoney inflation calc ) - a new one was about 8 and a bit then which translates to around 22/23k now. I was lucky to have nearly 4 years no claims by then so insurance affordable
Gary C will confirm I'm sure that you didn't particularly buy a Manta for the CIH engine or extraordinary performance. It was a very nice handling car though imo.
Faster hot hatches were available.

As I said in post 7 on this thread, I was interested in a new/newish GT86 but the rear seat space wasn't/isn't enough for my sons with me up front driving.

[RobM77]

Gary C said:

RobM77 said:

Jimmy Recard said:

MarshPhantom said:

Kambites is saying if he was 21 he'd spunk 11 grand on a GT86, I wouldn't. This is what I'd do instead.

And that's where I'm with you. It's a lot of money, not only for a 21 year old. If 21 year olds were rich, we'd see more Gt86s!

I don't know about everyone else, but aged 21, I just wanted to the fastest car I could afford, provided it handled pretty well and was fairly light. I don't think I was unusual for wanting that. The GT86 wouldn't have been a consideration for me, if cars had the power they do now. Nearly 20 years later, experience has reversed those priorities for me.

When I was 21 the gt86 would have been a very fast and powerful car and I would have loved to have one (would have made a 3.0ltr Capri look really lame).

But more importantly I tended to look for rwd cars as the fwd hatchback storm arrived, not the fastest I could get.

Speed is relative. My 60hp polo is fast enough to have fun in, really!

Do I have more fun in my carrera, ok yes but that's not totally down to the power

The key phrase in my post is 'if cars had the power they do now'....

[Gary C]

RobM77 said:

Gary C said:

RobM77 said:

Jimmy Recard said:

MarshPhantom said:

Kambites is saying if he was 21 he'd spunk 11 grand on a GT86, I wouldn't. This is what I'd do instead.

And that's where I'm with you. It's a lot of money, not only for a 21 year old. If 21 year olds were rich, we'd see more Gt86s!

I don't know about everyone else, but aged 21, I just wanted to the fastest car I could afford, provided it handled pretty well and was fairly light. I don't think I was unusual for wanting that. The GT86 wouldn't have been a consideration for me, if cars had the power they do now. Nearly 20 years later, experience has reversed those priorities for me.

When I was 21 the gt86 would have been a very fast and powerful car and I would have loved to have one (would have made a 3.0ltr Capri look really lame).

But more importantly I tended to look for rwd cars as the fwd hatchback storm arrived, not the fastest I could get.

Speed is relative. My 60hp polo is fast enough to have fun in, really!

Do I have more fun in my carrera, ok yes but that's not totally down to the power

The key phrase in my post is 'if cars had the power they do now'....

Lol, as sm pointed at above, the good old manat GTE was not exactly overpowered in its day against the competition but I still bought one (well three actually, the most expensive was only two years old and 6k at the time) because I enjoy a nice rwd coupe'

I imagine a relevant gt86 in the 80's would have been about 100-110 hp against the really powerful machinery of 150-180hp. the manta's were about 100 to 110.

Obsession with powere is really fking up the young car drivers of today.

Says the former owner of an STi and a nice Evo v

Don't get me wrong, power is nice but it's not the first thing I look at.

[RobM77]

Gary C said:

RobM77 said:

Gary C said:

RobM77 said:

Jimmy Recard said:

MarshPhantom said:

Kambites is saying if he was 21 he'd spunk 11 grand on a GT86, I wouldn't. This is what I'd do instead.

And that's where I'm with you. It's a lot of money, not only for a 21 year old. If 21 year olds were rich, we'd see more Gt86s!

I don't know about everyone else, but aged 21, I just wanted to the fastest car I could afford, provided it handled pretty well and was fairly light. I don't think I was unusual for wanting that. The GT86 wouldn't have been a consideration for me, if cars had the power they do now. Nearly 20 years later, experience has reversed those priorities for me.

When I was 21 the gt86 would have been a very fast and powerful car and I would have loved to have one (would have made a 3.0ltr Capri look really lame).

But more importantly I tended to look for rwd cars as the fwd hatchback storm arrived, not the fastest I could get.

Speed is relative. My 60hp polo is fast enough to have fun in, really!

Do I have more fun in my carrera, ok yes but that's not totally down to the power

The key phrase in my post is 'if cars had the power they do now'....

Lol, as sm pointed at above, the good old manat GTE was not exactly overpowered in its day against the competition but I still bought one (well three actually, the most expensive was only two years old and 6k at the time) because I enjoy a nice rwd coupe'

I imagine a relevant gt86 in the 80's would have been about 100-110 hp against the really powerful machinery of 150-180hp. the manta's were about 100 to 110.

Obsession with powere is really fking up the young car drivers of today.

Says the former owner of an STi and a nice Evo v

Don't get me wrong, power is nice but it's not the first thing I look at.

I think it is for many 21 year olds - that's my point. If not the first thing, it's very important to them - I know it was for me back then. Not now, but back then it was.

[s m]

Gary C said:

RobM77 said:

Gary C said:

RobM77 said:

Jimmy Recard said:

MarshPhantom said:

Kambites is saying if he was 21 he'd spunk 11 grand on a GT86, I wouldn't. This is what I'd do instead.

And that's where I'm with you. It's a lot of money, not only for a 21 year old. If 21 year olds were rich, we'd see more Gt86s!

I don't know about everyone else, but aged 21, I just wanted to the fastest car I could afford, provided it handled pretty well and was fairly light. I don't think I was unusual for wanting that. The GT86 wouldn't have been a consideration for me, if cars had the power they do now. Nearly 20 years later, experience has reversed those priorities for me.

When I was 21 the gt86 would have been a very fast and powerful car and I would have loved to have one (would have made a 3.0ltr Capri look really lame).

But more importantly I tended to look for rwd cars as the fwd hatchback storm arrived, not the fastest I could get.

Speed is relative. My 60hp polo is fast enough to have fun in, really!

Do I have more fun in my carrera, ok yes but that's not totally down to the power

The key phrase in my post is 'if cars had the power they do now'....

Lol, as sm pointed at above, the good old manat GTE was not exactly overpowered in its day against the competition but I still bought one (well three actually, the most expensive was only two years old and 6k at the time) because I enjoy a nice rwd coupe'

I imagine a relevant gt86 in the 80's would have been about 100-110 hp against the really powerful machinery of 150-180hp. the manta's were about 100 to 110.

Obsession with powere is really fking up the young car drivers of today.

Says the former owner of an STi and a nice Evo v

Don't get me wrong, power is nice but it's not the first thing I look at.

Market/tastes have changed

I think a lot of people go for soft-roaders/SUVs instead of coupes now as the performance is much more comparable to mainstream cars.

The Manta sold almost as many in the UK in its penultimate year of production than the GT86 managed in 2012-2016 inclusive. I think both were outclassed in raw performance for those years by fwd hatches.

[CABC]

i remember the Mantas, and the painfully slow 1.8, not that the GT/E was that fast. The Mantas still looked the part though, especially as the GTi thing was just kicking off and many people hadn't got their head around a 'fast normal car'.

[s m]

CABC said:

i remember the Mantas, and the painfully slow 1.8, not that the GT/E was that fast. The Mantas still looked the part though, especially as the GTi thing was just kicking off and many people hadn't got their head around a 'fast normal car'.

They dropped the 1.8 OHC carb models at the end of the production run and carried on with the older engine - the CIH 2 litre Bosch injected GTEs.

[Lefty]

Here's the rub, the Clio 182 for example is 180bhp and 1 tonne. GT86/BRZ is 200bhp and 1200kg (?) so similar-ish pwr (180 vs 170).

But the Clio feels much quicker - i'm sure it's not but the power delivery is much more exciting - and it sounds great. Maybe some cams, free flowing exhaust and a nice rorty intake would transform the boxer engine. Perhaps a lighter flywheel too, to help it rev?

I still really like the idea of the car. Just never liked the idea enough to spend 20+ grand on one.

[Bullett]

I had one for a 24hr test drive.
I enjoyed the drive, power was fine for day to day driving. Got the arse out on a roundabout (mostly on purpose) it did make me smile. I have two young kids so needed the rear space to actually work day to day and it was tight even for a 4 and 5yo (the wife and I are both 6ft+). So ultimately it wasn't practical enough for a daily or special enough for a weekend car.

[DoubleD]

Reviews that i have read all say that its the way the engine produces its power thats dissapointing and not the lack of power.

[nickfrog]

Correct. It's a total shambles. They've made a mess of it like if the mapping/fuelling had been decided by a committee so that it doesn't upset anyone. But it doesn't satisfy anyone. Talk of a no compromise approach to driver appeal! In fairness they brilliantly executed the principle on the chassis so how they've managed precisely the opposite with the engine is really hard to fathom, for me anyway.

[Truckosaurus]

Was the plan for the engine setup that they went for the ultimate in low emissions as stock, so as to save in various taxes worldwide, in the expectation that most enthusiasts would be remapping for performance at some stage. (A quick Google shows off the shelf Cosworth branded remaps for £595+vat)

[underphil]

Truckosaurus said:

Was the plan for the engine setup that they went for the ultimate in low emissions as stock, so as to save in various taxes worldwide, in the expectation that most enthusiasts would be remapping for performance at some stage. (A quick Google shows off the shelf Cosworth branded remaps for £595+vat)

except that the Cosworth map (or any other) doesn't get rid of the torque dip at 4000rpm

The Costworth map sounds like a good gain from the headline figures, but looking at the dyno chart it makes bugger all difference until 6000rpm

[RobM77]

Lefty said:

Here's the rub, the Clio 182 for example is 180bhp and 1 tonne. GT86/BRZ is 200bhp and 1200kg (?) so similar-ish pwr (180 vs 170).

But the Clio feels much quicker - i'm sure it's not but the power delivery is much more exciting - and it sounds great. Maybe some cams, free flowing exhaust and a nice rorty intake would transform the boxer engine. Perhaps a lighter flywheel too, to help it rev?

I still really like the idea of the car. Just never liked the idea enough to spend 20+ grand on one.

Some of it will be the engine characteristics, but in my experience, front wheel drive cars usually do feel quicker than RWD ones, purely due to the fact they're a less than ideal tool for doing the job of going fast - i.e. they cope with everything better. It's like hearing a singer at the edge of their range: it always sounds more raw and cuts through the air more than a singer who's comfortably well within what they're capable of.

[DoubleD]

RobM77 said:

Lefty said:

Here's the rub, the Clio 182 for example is 180bhp and 1 tonne. GT86/BRZ is 200bhp and 1200kg (?) so similar-ish pwr (180 vs 170).

But the Clio feels much quicker - i'm sure it's not but the power delivery is much more exciting - and it sounds great. Maybe some cams, free flowing exhaust and a nice rorty intake would transform the boxer engine. Perhaps a lighter flywheel too, to help it rev?

I still really like the idea of the car. Just never liked the idea enough to spend 20+ grand on one.

Some of it will be the engine characteristics, but in my experience, front wheel drive cars usually do feel quicker than RWD ones, purely due to the fact they're a less than ideal tool for doing the job of going fast - i.e. they cope with everything better. It's like hearing a singer at the edge of their range: it always sounds more raw and cuts through the air more than a singer who's comfortably well within what they're capable of.

Yeah i agree, some FWD cars are more exciting to drive than some RWD cars, must be something to do with being less than ideal i guess.

[TameRacingDriver]

Clio 182 feels quite unstable compared to most cars I've driven - it squats under acceleration, dives under braking unsettling the back end, and overall the chassis was quite crude especially compared with the later models that followed it (the 197 and 200). In those later models the chassis was much better, stiffer, better controlled, but also heavier, which makes it feel more planted but also blunts the acceleration...

The power delivery of the 182 is also very on/off, a bit like a VTEC but without the nice noise to go with it. I understand that they've managed to refine the later engines so that they are more linear, but also develop peak torque higher up the rev range. This stepped power delivery in combination with more low down torque, less weight and also the above almost certainly makes the 182 feel as though it accelerates more quickly too.

Therefore they do feel a bit "edgy" and that probably explains why they feel as quick as they do. I'd suggest the GT86 was more comparable with a Clio 197 or 200 than a 172 or 182, and with similar power, weight and torque figures, I would bet the Clio no longer feels any quicker.

TL;DR The Clio 172/182 feels quick because of its flaws.