- The riddle pf the Toyota GT86- the car for purist drivers.

[s m]

Andyhb said:

Has anyone seen actual real world bhp reading from the gt86. I'm sure I read somewhere that it only put out approximately 170, far from the 197 advertised.

ISTR that Charlie ( Surrey Rolling Road ) tested a couple years back and found that they were about 25bhp South of where he thought they'd be for quoted power.Could be wrong though

[nickfrog]

MartynVRS said:

As for people saying if it had X, Y or Z they'd buy it. The reality is they wouldn't and are all talk. As for people wanting it to be 7k will have to wait 3-4 years, like everything else that depreciates.

Agreed. I see more value at £15k with 2.5 years of manufacturer's warranty than half that for an 8 year old car that has none and will need some refreshing.

[Tuvra]

tejr said:

I really liked the Idea of the GT86/BRZ , but tuning such cars is half the fun.. Something they seem to be lacking as they are NA

To win me over, they either needed a bigger straight 6 NA engine, or a turbo.

Or both.. 300bhp straight 6 NA, and a tuneable 200bhp turbo 4 pot.

This would have tempted me away from the hot hatches. I had one as a courtesy car for 6 weeks and was glad when it went back, I'll never forget the disappointment when I floored that car for the first time

[FIREBIRDC9]

em177 said:

These threads all end up going the same way and becoming a little silly.

There are more competent cars out there. There are faster cars out there. There are better looking cars out there. There are cheaper cars out there.

But I'm yet to drive a car which puts such a smile on my face as this one. Every time you get in it. You don't have to be a drift king. After a long sensible drive home, flicking the stability stuff off and coming out of the last roundabout before the house with a dab of opposite lock on makes the whole thing worthwhile.

This is a petrolheads forum. Toyota (in 2017) can sell you a rear wheel drive, normally aspirated (crucial), manual, sports coupe with a locking diff for around 25 grand.

Yes you could buy a Golf R. Yes it will be faster and more competent. You can go boast to your mates that you've got 300bhp, that you look good in the company car park amongst the mere plebs in their GTD's (until they nick your wing mirror covers) You'll no doubt get all errect over the quality of your heated seat button action.

But I'd rather be a few hundred yards down the road behind. Grinning.

If you don't understand that then that's fine. But that's your problem. Not the cars.

Edited by em177 on Sunday 15th January 22:27

Truer words have never been spoken!

[anonymous-user]

JB! said:

Used E46 M3 - Old, and hideous parts prices, and watching my housemate do a boot floor, and the fact that its just a posh 3 series.
Used Z4 - too much money for a decent power one and knocking on 10 years old.
Used Cayman - Again, running costs, parts prices.
Used S2 Elise Toyota power - Edging out of my price range for a nice one

That's all well and good but how much will it be to modify your 'blank canvas', how much will the insurance etc be and how reliable will the car be as a daily?

Suddenly a used Cayman isn't so much of a stretch?

[LasseV]

tejr said:

I really liked the Idea of the GT86/BRZ , but tuning such cars is half the fun.. Something they seem to be lacking as they are NA

To win me over, they either needed a bigger straight 6 NA engine, or a turbo.

Or both.. 300bhp straight 6 NA, and a tuneable 200bhp turbo 4 pot.

Truth to be told, GT86 has way more potential than Golf R ever has. It did take literally a few weeks after launch when first turboed-gt86 did hit 10s mark in 1/4 mile. I doubt that golf r has achieved that. And if you really wanted to have 30-40 hp more and you are not just talking bs, you can have it via re-mapping and headers+exhaust. This car made 13.9 sec in 1/4 mile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lguKZVlprY

Standard Golf R goes 13.6 sec. I would say that is totally meaningless difference for a road car...

The thing is, this car has so much potential in every stages. In stock form, lightly modded or going high hp monster, you can do it. It has a strong engine, gearbox, diff and body.

I will say it again, this car is not for a lad who is interested about leasing a Golf R or similar. It just isn't.

Edit: I was wrong, read below

Edited by LasseV on Thursday 19th January 10:30

Edited by LasseV on Thursday 19th January 10:42

[Alex]

em177 said:

These threads all end up going the same way and becoming a little silly.

There are more competent cars out there. There are faster cars out there. There are better looking cars out there. There are cheaper cars out there.

But I'm yet to drive a car which puts such a smile on my face as this one. Every time you get in it. You don't have to be a drift king. After a long sensible drive home, flicking the stability stuff off and coming out of the last roundabout before the house with a dab of opposite lock on makes the whole thing worthwhile.

This is a petrolheads forum. Toyota (in 2017) can sell you a rear wheel drive, normally aspirated (crucial), manual, sports coupe with a locking diff for around 25 grand.

Yes you could buy a Golf R. Yes it will be faster and more competent. You can go boast to your mates that you've got 300bhp, that you look good in the company car park amongst the mere plebs in their GTD's (until they nick your wing mirror covers) You'll no doubt get all errect over the quality of your heated seat button action.

But I'd rather be a few hundred yards down the road behind. Grinning.

If you don't understand that then that's fine. But that's your problem. Not the cars.

Edited by em177 on Sunday 15th January 22:27

Spot on. And as the owner of a BRZ and a Golf R, I feel qualified to comment on the comparison.

The Golf R is a superb everyday car. It's ballistic, has brilliant 4WD traction and very safe handling.
The BRZ is a proper sports car for experienced drivers. It is more challenging to drive fast, and is way more fun.

[tejr]

LasseV said:

Truth to be told, GT86 has way more potential than Golf R ever has. It did take literally a few weeks after launch when first turboed-gt86 did hit 10s mark in 1/4 mile. I doubt that golf r has achieved that. And if you really wanted to have 30-40 hp more and you are not just talking bs, you can have it via re-mapping and headers+exhaust. This car made 13.9 sec in 1/4 mile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lguKZVlprY

Standard Golf R goes 13.6 sec. I would say that is totally meaningless difference for a road car...

The thing is, this car has so much potential in every stages. In stock form, lightly modded or going high hp monster, you can do it. It has a strong engine, gearbox, diff and body.

I will say it again, this car is not for a lad who is interested about leasing a Golf R or similar. It just isn't.

Edit: I was wrong, read below

Edited by LasseV on Thursday 19th January 10:30

Edited by LasseV on Thursday 19th January 10:42

Hmmm.. Golf "R"'s and other hot hatches do nothing for me..

I felt the GT86 may be a nice spiritual successor to cars like my old 200sx (S14a shape).. 30-40bhp from a remap isn't aggressive enough for my liking (you may as well keep it stock for the expense of it all), and I wouldn't want to go down the expense and palava of a turbo conversion.. I'd just want something I could tinker and tweak the stock version of without having to resort to getting a garage heavily involved in (I wouldn't have the time nor could I be assed to DIY a turbo conversion with 2 kids!).

[underphil]

s m said:

Andyhb said:

Has anyone seen actual real world bhp reading from the gt86. I'm sure I read somewhere that it only put out approximately 170, far from the 197 advertised.

ISTR that Charlie ( Surrey Rolling Road ) tested a couple years back and found that they were about 25bhp South of where he thought they'd be for quoted power.Could be wrong though

I'd trust Cosworth's dyno a lot more:

190 at the flywheel

[Tuvra]

LasseV said:

Truth to be told, GT86 has way more potential than Golf R ever has. It did take literally a few weeks after launch when first turboed-gt86 did hit 10s mark in 1/4 mile. I doubt that golf r has achieved that. And if you really wanted to have 30-40 hp more and you are not just talking bs, you can have it via re-mapping and headers+exhaust. This car made 13.9 sec in 1/4 mile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lguKZVlprY

Standard Golf R goes 13.6 sec. I would say that is totally meaningless difference for a road car...

The thing is, this car has so much potential in every stages. In stock form, lightly modded or going high hp monster, you can do it. It has a strong engine, gearbox, diff and body

Revo Stage 1 Golf R does 0-60mph in 3.7 seconds and 0-100mph in 9 seconds. The cost, £600. How much would you have to throw at a GT86 to get anywhere near them figures?

Saying the GT86 has potential is one thing, saying it has "way more" performance potential than a Golf R is utter madness though. Throw £10k at each and then compare like for like because at the moment, your comparing apples and oranges.

I'll say again, if the GT86 had 300bhp or so as standard, I probably would have had one by now, fact. My argument has always been that they should have launched the car as it is now PLUS a higher powered Turbo/Supercharged version from the factory.

[HannsG]

Not quite the same. But....

I went fromna supercharged M3 to a Panda 100HP (Don't laugh!)

The Panda is fun, oh yes..but no matter what people say it's slow as hell.

It gets to a point where people prefer speed and acceleration over 'fun'.

The GT86 should have been given more power. End of

[s m]

tejr said:

Hmmm.. Golf "R"'s and other hot hatches do nothing for me..

I felt the GT86 may be a nice spiritual successor to cars like my old 200sx (S14a shape).. 30-40bhp from a remap isn't aggressive enough for my liking (you may as well keep it stock for the expense of it all), and I wouldn't want to go down the expense and palava of a turbo conversion.. I'd just want something I could tinker and tweak the stock version of without having to resort to getting a garage heavily involved in (I wouldn't have the time nor could I be assed to DIY a turbo conversion with 2 kids!).

Similar to the S13 one in some respects too

[Truckosaurus]

What's the cause of (and indeed, fix for) this 'torque dip' around 4000rpm? (very visible on the dyno chart above).

It obviously can't just be mapped out as some fool suggested earlier ( ) as is remains in the Cosworth staged upgrades (also shown above).

[CABC]

Along with the remap it'll need a manifold and exhaust to make biggest transformation. Dynos show good power and torque uplift, but also more even mid-range delivery. And butt dyno is much happier too.

I'd buy a really fast hatch if only they had good handling feel, lower seating position, balance. feelsome stuff. Instead i bought several lightweights

[Richyvrlimited]

Truckosaurus said:

What's the cause of (and indeed, fix for) this 'torque dip' around 4000rpm? (very visible on the dyno chart above).

It obviously can't just be mapped out as some fool suggested earlier ( ) as is remains in the Cosworth staged upgrades (also shown above).

The main cause is the stock manifold and the 1st catalytic converter built into it, remove that for a free flowing unit with no cat, and remap the ECU to take advantage of the better flow.

Do those two and you end up with a much flatter torque curve, a lot more midrange and 15+bhp up top

[LasseV]

Tuvra said:

Revo Stage 1 Golf R does 0-60mph in 3.7 seconds and 0-100mph in 9 seconds. The cost, £600. How much would you have to throw at a GT86 to get anywhere near them figures?

Saying the GT86 has potential is one thing, saying it has "way more" performance potential than a Golf R is utter madness though. Throw £10k at each and then compare like for like because at the moment, your comparing apples and oranges.

http://www.dynosty.com/2012/10/scion-fr-s-record-14-mile-pass-11-1-127-9/

11.1 sec 1/4 mile with turbo kit. And this is old one, from year 2012 and the game has gone further quite a lot after that. Golf R needs a lot of work to get there and probably that 10 thousand isn't enough. Here are differend turbo kits:
http://www.frsmod.com/collections/forced-induction

Prices are between 4t-7t+. It is a US company but no doubt you can find UK based tuner too.

This thing has a lot of potential. And now we have talked only about straight line, when the corners come along... Yeah, when you read gt86 specific forums there is a lot of track day/auto cross etc talk. Seems to be a good track car too.

TRD actually went full retard mode an made this not so high hp n/a beast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1Tue_zyMQI

I love that test car.

Edit: And i don't mean that Golf R is slow car, hell no.

[underphil]

Richyvrlimited said:

Truckosaurus said:

What's the cause of (and indeed, fix for) this 'torque dip' around 4000rpm? (very visible on the dyno chart above).

It obviously can't just be mapped out as some fool suggested earlier ( ) as is remains in the Cosworth staged upgrades (also shown above).

The main cause is the stock manifold and the 1st catalytic converter built into it, remove that for a free flowing unit with no cat, and remap the ECU to take advantage of the better flow.

Do those two and you end up with a much flatter torque curve, a lot more midrange and 15+bhp up top

not really true though - look at the Cosworth dyno above, even with manifold / full exhaust and remap there's still a massive torque dip, just in a slightly different part of the rev range

[CABC]

underphil said:

not really true though - look at the Cosworth dyno above, even with manifold / full exhaust and remap there's still a massive torque dip, just in a slightly different part of the rev range

yep, looks that way.
it feels different with manifold/exhaust swap though. maybe it's because with 1.3 the curves rise sharply around 30% sooner, thus narrowing the dip?? don't know. a lot of cars have funny curves too. be good to look at other curves for their wobbly bits, esp NA engines meeting modern emissions stds. not denying that the 86 has a long dip btw.

[underphil]

CABC said:

yep, looks that way.
it feels different with manifold/exhaust swap though. maybe it's because with 1.3 the curves rise sharply around 30% sooner, thus narrowing the dip?? don't know. a lot of cars have funny curves too. be good to look at other curves for their wobbly bits, esp NA engines meeting modern emissions stds. not denying that the 86 has a long dip btw.

yeah, to be fair with the cosworth set up the torque is strong again by 4000rpm so a lot less likely to come into play

[ian2144]

FIREBIRDC9 said:

em177 said:

These threads all end up going the same way and becoming a little silly.

There are more competent cars out there. There are faster cars out there. There are better looking cars out there. There are cheaper cars out there.

But I'm yet to drive a car which puts such a smile on my face as this one. Every time you get in it. You don't have to be a drift king. After a long sensible drive home, flicking the stability stuff off and coming out of the last roundabout before the house with a dab of opposite lock on makes the whole thing worthwhile.

This is a petrolheads forum. Toyota (in 2017) can sell you a rear wheel drive, normally aspirated (crucial), manual, sports coupe with a locking diff for around 25 grand.

Yes you could buy a Golf R. Yes it will be faster and more competent. You can go boast to your mates that you've got 300bhp, that you look good in the company car park amongst the mere plebs in their GTD's (until they nick your wing mirror covers) You'll no doubt get all errect over the quality of your heated seat button action.

But I'd rather be a few hundred yards down the road behind. Grinning.

If you don't understand that then that's fine. But that's your problem. Not the cars.

Edited by em177 on Sunday 15th January 22:27

Truer words have never been spoken!

Totally agree with this..!!