- The riddle pf the Toyota GT86- the car for purist drivers.

[kambites]

You can get into an Elise for not much more money than a GT86 too, which is obviously a lot lighter (although slightly less practical).

[tankplanker]

ecsrobin said:

And that's the heavy version! The lower versions are 1035kg. It flies round corners helped by the mechanical LSD (not fitted in all models)

Evo scored the 595, ST and Cooper all 4/5 overall.

Its an Evo head to head that I'm quoting from the 595 review.

[Richyvrlimited]

kambites said:

You can get into an Elise for not much more money than a GT86 too, which is obviously a lot lighter (although slightly less practical).

slightly? When you drop the rear seat back down on the 86, the boot is pretty big, I'd say the 86 is far more practical than the Elise

[james_gt3rs]

Truckosaurus said:

Indeed. I suspect that the GT86/BRZ will be a cult car in the future once it is cheap enough to be a 2nd car/track day warrior (much like how E36 coupes are treated today).

I'll get one when they're 5k

[LP670]

My ex neighbour works for Toyota and he used to bring the demonstrators home, let me borrow a gt86 for a few hours and the engine was what let it down. It just felt flat and i didnt like the sound all that much, i thought it would sound like an impreza (which i like the sound of) but this was crap. If they put the old 1.8 vvtli engine in it would be much better. performance wasnt the issue for me it was just the character of the engine.

[tankplanker]

kambites said:

You can get into an Elise for not much more money than a GT86 too, which is obviously a lot lighter (although slightly less practical).

A used Elise vs. a new GT86 may be. The Elise Sport starts at £30,500, the GT86 from £26,410, the BRZ starts at £25040. Its possible to push the dealer down to low 20s for a new BRZ or GT86, you'll struggle to do that with the Lotus.

[rallycross]

A point to show that it's not been a sales failure is that used prices remain strong the cheapest ones on autotrader are still around £11k demand must be decent.

[kambites]

tankplanker said:

kambites said:

You can get into an Elise for not much more money than a GT86 too, which is obviously a lot lighter (although slightly less practical).

A used Elise vs. a new GT86 may be. The Elise Sport starts at £30,500, the GT86 from £26,410, the BRZ starts at £25040. Its possible to push the dealer down to low 20s for a new BRZ or GT86, you'll struggle to do that with the Lotus.

Yeah it seems Elise prices have gone up since I last looked. I thought you could still get into a 1.6 for £28k.

[kambites]

james_gt3rs said:

Truckosaurus said:

Indeed. I suspect that the GT86/BRZ will be a cult car in the future once it is cheap enough to be a 2nd car/track day warrior (much like how E36 coupes are treated today).

I'll get one when they're 5k

Will they ever get that low? Cars where used demand is considerably stronger than new demand tend to plateau quite high.

[anonymous-user]

ecsrobin said:

Heavy - 1250kg
Slow - 0-62 7.6sec
36mpg
2 practical seats
Expensive £28k for an average spec
Cheap interior

This is the problem with the modern car buyer. How often is 7.6s to 60 not fast enough exactly, is that really what we're going to set as one of the benchmarks for something 'good to drive'? Expensive, really, a boggo washing machine spec Audi can exceed this. 2 practical seats, this doesn't seem to hurt the Cayman? Cheap interior, it's a cheap car FFS, what are you expecting? 36mpg, that's not exactly awful and heavy, 1250kg, heavy....a Ford Fiesta is likely 1200kg.

Basically people, even on PH, care more about;

Image
Economy
Soft touch plastics

[CABC]

price is clearly a consideration as it sells well elsewhere.

PH has a high quota of petrolheads but it also has a high percentage of more shallow car fans interested in looks and image. And mpg. And bragging rights.

A lot of cars today have incredible power and grip. Along with the interior, that seems to be enough on many forums to claim a 'win'. Rarely is it highlighted that these same cars have little feel, rock hard suspension in order to overcome their high weight and high CoG, poor steering feel.

Torque can be good, but many enthusiasts prefer power and to use a gearbox to get that power. A car is not a good sports car because "it pulls in 7th coming out of a roundabout" (a quote from PH. Sad)

Another charm of the 86 is the low seating position and low CoG, which results in great interactivity and direct sensation of what the car is doing underneath you. That's not just quoting from a magazine, any keen driver can feel that for themselves.

[kambites]

yonex said:

1250kg, heavy....a Ford Fiesta is likely 1200kg.

The current Fiesta ST quoted as <1100kg.

[Fittster]

RDMcG said:

I

Has PH become a dinosaur, out of touch with ordinary drivers?. Or it is that the journos no longer represent the buying public who just want commuter cars or SUVS?.... Sad that this was a failure:

What PHers say that want and what they are willing to spend money on are very different. Toyota could have saved themselves a lot of money if they had spoken to Lotus.

"They same they want low running costs, handling that can be exploited at relatively low speeds, low weight and badges don't matter. Then they buy Porsche Macans".

[spreadsheet monkey]

RDMcG said:

Has PH become a dinosaur, out of touch with ordinary drivers?

Yes. It is readily acknowledged on here that PHers (and car enthusiasts in general) represent only a small niche of the Great British public's views.

RDMcG said:

Or it is that the journos no longer represent the buying public who just want commuter cars or SUVS?

That's been true for a long time! It's easy to give a five star verdict when you've been on a PR junket spending time driving the car in a warm climate on great roads, but for ordinary punters faced with a choice between buying (or leasing) a GT86 or a Golf R, the hot hatch wins on the basis of practicality, turbo power and value for money.

TooMany2cvs said:

HowManyLeft says north of 5,500 on the road, including BRZs.

They have been on sale for almost five years. Just over a thousand a year, for the BRZ and GT86 combined. That is surely way behind the sales figures for the 7th gen Celica or Golf R or Focus ST or any other comparable car.

[CABC]

ecsrobin said:

tankplanker said:

ecsrobin said:

Although a hot hatch my Abarth 595 is 1070kg quicker and £4K cheaper and has 4 useable seats.

It comes down to it every time the Gt86 price was just too high to any of its competition.

I didn't realise those were so light, I'd dispute that it'd be quicker than the GT86 for anything other than a straight line though. I need to drive one as it usually gets put behind the Fiesta ST, Cooper S, etc. in terms of quality of driving experience by the magazines so I need to see myself.

And that's the heavy version! The lower versions are 1035kg. It flies round corners helped by the mechanical LSD (not fitted in all models)

Evo scored the 595, ST and Cooper all 4/5 overall.

Arbath is a different car. A blast down a country road is great fun in both, but rather different approaches. The Arbath is giggle-fun involvement a little like GTis of old (but a lot faster) whereas the 86 is more the purist's choice, composed yet fully communicative. Both good.
great that all these type of cars exist to give us choice and different experiences.

[kambites]

spreadsheet monkey said:

RDMcG said:

Has PH become a dinosaur, out of touch with ordinary drivers?

Yes. It is readily acknowledged on here that PHers (and car enthusiasts in general) represent only a small niche of the Great British public's views.

I don't think "become" is a fair word though, enthusiasts have been a tiny proportion of drivers since the car first became available to the masses just after the first world war.

[anonymous-user]

kambites said:

The current Fiesta ST quoted as <1100kg.

the internet said:

4.5/5 · Autocar
Model: Ford Fiesta
Acceleration 0-62 mph: 6.9 seconds
Fuel economy: 46-48 mpg combined (34-36 city, 59 highway)
RRP: From £19,685
Kerb weight: 1,163 to 1,182 kg

In either case, the GT86 is not 'heavy'

[kambites]

yonex said:

In either case, the GT86 is not 'heavy'

I guess it depends what you compare it to. For me, the only real obvious comparison (similar size, front-engined RWD, drive rather than luxury focussed, etc.) is the MX5 which is ~1000kg. However, the MX5 is astonishingly light for a modern car; I'd say the GT86 is about average for what it is; whether that's a acceptable rather depends on what your expectations were, I suppose.

Personally I wouldn't call it a heavy car, but I couldn't call it a light one either.

[ecsrobin]

yonex said:

ecsrobin said:

Heavy - 1250kg
Slow - 0-62 7.6sec
36mpg
2 practical seats
Expensive £28k for an average spec
Cheap interior

This is the problem with the modern car buyer. How often is 7.6s to 60 not fast enough exactly, is that really what we're going to set as one of the benchmarks for something 'good to drive'? Expensive, really, a boggo washing machine spec Audi can exceed this. 2 practical seats, this doesn't seem to hurt the Cayman? Cheap interior, it's a cheap car FFS, what are you expecting? 36mpg, that's not exactly awful and heavy, 1250kg, heavy....a Ford Fiesta is likely 1200kg.

Basically people, even on PH, care more about;

Image
Economy
Soft touch plastics

If I cared about image I wouldn't drive around in an expensive fiat 500

Economy does come into it if you're also using it as a daily.

You sit inside the car more than you look at the outside so of course that comes into consideration.

However I think the key factor is value for money and the GT86 just doesn't represent that.

As an aside (and I don't want to keep banging on about my car as it was the best choice for me not for everyone else) but my car is 0-60 in 6.7 (and why not use it as a benchmark it has been for years) it's cheap compared to the Toyota it has 4 seats with a high finish of interior (where it counts) returns between 39-41mpg with a mixture of heavy right in the country and specify driving. And weighs in close to a ton.

[em177]

I've been lucky enough to have had a lot of the PH favorites in the past.

My GT86 is the best road car of the lot of them.