- The riddle pf the Toyota GT86- the car for purist drivers.

[IdiotRace]

ecsrobin said:

They start at just over £26k any colour that's not red is £500 extra spoilers are extra it soon adds up to around £28k

Ah that sucks they bumped the price when the facelift came out. The old version was starting at £23k with the Primo after some googling around, seems to have been dropped from the lineup now.

[5harp3y]

it should have had a small 4 cylinder (non-boxer engine) in it potentially with a small turbo

and

been under 25k

[anonymous-user]

tankplanker said:

I don't see any hatchback as a direct competitor to the GT86. My Golf R has 50% more power than the GT86, rear doors, rear seats that an adult can sit in, a boot that is almost twice as large, 4 wheel drive, and a massive step up in interior refinement, all for another ~200kg.

Does that make the Golf R a better car? Does it make the Golf R a better driver's car?

For the price difference between the Golf R and the GT86 I can fix both the tyres, the exhaust and the power deficit in the GT86.

What does a new Cayman start at, 40K or so? That is surely the car that most people would spend their money if they wanted a 2 seater? The manufacturers are damned if they do, damned if they don't when they make these things.

[hondansx]

Venturist said:

Driving it though I've not fallen for it. That "playful rear end" that sounds so good in the reviews - to me, as an average guy, a petrolhead but not a driving god, I just find it slightly intimidating. The back end will step out a little bit if you misjudge at all - too much throttle pulling out of a wet car park, unexpected damp patch in the road when accelerating, anything. The stability control catches you but still - if I was to describe it in one word I would say "skittish". And this means I drive it incredibly conservatively in corners, because frankly, I don't WANT the back end to step out on the road. Attack a corner and get caught out by an unexpected hump mid-bend - back end is going to slide a bit.

Basically, this post and thread in general highlights that:

A) PistonHeads doesn't reflect the masses. There's no harm fighting our corner, but we also have to accept the majority want bragging and posing rights over everything else.

B) This INCLUDES enthusiasts. Dare i say it, a proportion of Pistonheads users are within this category. When it comes down to the crunch, they won't put their money where their mouths are - hence why i see perhaps a couple of GT86s on the road a week max.

Venturist, fair play for admitting it, but another fallacy is that being into cars makes you a good driver. Sadly, a day on a skidpan will not turn anyone into a driving god. Being a genuinely skilled driver requires constant seat time and investment - it's an expensive hobby.

I would argue, if you were a die-hard car guy, you'd be booking yourself up for drift training and practice, as well setting your alarm clock at 3am so you can practice sliding around your local roundabouts.

[kambites]

james_gt3rs said:

kambites said:

Will they ever get that low? Cars where used demand is considerably stronger than new demand tend to plateau quite high.

Hope so, things like Integras, 350Z, RX8s are cheap now.

You wouldn't get much Integra for £5k. RX8s are cheap because they sold very well new, 350Zs are cheap because no-one wants them new or second-hand.

You may be right, I don't really have a feeling for the market but certainly at the moment residuals look pretty damned strong.

[RobM77]

yonex said:

tankplanker said:

I don't see any hatchback as a direct competitor to the GT86. My Golf R has 50% more power than the GT86, rear doors, rear seats that an adult can sit in, a boot that is almost twice as large, 4 wheel drive, and a massive step up in interior refinement, all for another ~200kg.

Does that make the Golf R a better car? Does it make the Golf R a better driver's car?

For the price difference between the Golf R and the GT86 I can fix both the tyres, the exhaust and the power deficit in the GT86.

What does a new Cayman start at, 40K or so? That is surely the car that most people would spend their money if they wanted a 2 seater? The manufacturers are damned if they do, damned if they don't when they make these things.

Which is why I think Toyota should be applauded for making the GT86 They knew full well it couldn't cost new Cayman money, or even lightly used Cayman money, but it needed to be a proper driver's car and not just a platform sharing hash up (that's not a dig at the 370Z) or warmed over hatch. We can see the market pressures involved by the fact that even a giant like Toyota had to share costs with Subaru in order to do it.

[CABC]

hondansx said:

Venturist said:

Driving it though I've not fallen for it. That "playful rear end" that sounds so good in the reviews - to me, as an average guy, a petrolhead but not a driving god, I just find it slightly intimidating. The back end will step out a little bit if you misjudge at all - too much throttle pulling out of a wet car park, unexpected damp patch in the road when accelerating, anything. The stability control catches you but still - if I was to describe it in one word I would say "skittish". And this means I drive it incredibly conservatively in corners, because frankly, I don't WANT the back end to step out on the road. Attack a corner and get caught out by an unexpected hump mid-bend - back end is going to slide a bit.

Basically, this post and thread in general highlights that:

A) PistonHeads doesn't reflect the masses. There's no harm fighting our corner, but we also have to accept the majority want bragging and posing rights over everything else.

B) This INCLUDES enthusiasts. Dare i say it, a proportion of Pistonheads users are within this category. When it comes down to the crunch, they won't put their money where their mouths are - hence why i see perhaps a couple of GT86s on the road a week max.

Venturist, fair play for admitting it, but another fallacy is that being into cars makes you a good driver. Sadly, a day on a skidpan will not turn anyone into a driving god. Being a genuinely skilled driver requires constant seat time and investment - it's an expensive hobby.

I would argue, if you were a die-hard car guy, you'd be booking yourself up for drift training and practice, as well setting your alarm clock at 3am so you can practice sliding around your local roundabouts.

Even then the biggest joy on the public road is feeling the car talk to you, without drifting.
Turn ESC off completely (it's a little too aggressive and grabby, esp in the dry) and feel the car. It'll tell you what's going on, and do so well before loss of traction. Try the same in an R.
Better tyres can change/improve things.

[Stig]

5harp3y said:

it should have had a small 4 cylinder (non-boxer engine) in it potentially with a small turbo

Which would have completely changes the handling dynamics.

One of the main joys of the GT86 is its very low centre of gravity. A normal 4pot would raise this significantly.

As for turbo, horses for courses, but again I think it spoils it vs the power delivery of an NA engine. If you feel the 'need' for more power, better to supercharge.

I have a Mustang as a toy, the antithesis of the GT86 in a lot of respect, but for daily use as a hoot and definitely on track, I'd love a GT86 (too ).

[tankplanker]

yonex said:

What does a new Cayman start at, 40K or so? That is surely the car that most people would spend their money if they wanted a 2 seater? The manufacturers are damned if they do, damned if they don't when they make these things.

New Caymans are just over £40k now, but most will be sold with a good few thousand pounds worth of options as very little is standard. A used Cayman vs. a new GT86 would be a good comparison, £25k would probably get you a 2010 Gen II Cayman S, which would have a considerably nicer interior and a much more powerful and charismatic flat 6. Obviously a new GT86 should be massively cheaper to run.

[wack]

if subaru had put a impreza sti engine in it they would have sold loads of them

MX5 sells well because it's an affordable convertible , £1500 upwards buys you something to have a laugh in on a sunny day, if it's been a coupe it'd have run it's course in a few years

[unpc]

It's supposed to be a blank canvas for modifying but it's expensive to get more power out of it. IIRC supercharger and turbo conversions are north of £5k and NA tuning yields very little. Compare that to the Yank V8 market where big hp gains are only a few $$s away.

[kambites]

wack said:

if subaru had put a impreza sti engine in it they would have sold loads of them

I suspect it wouldn't fit, at least not with the top-mounted intercooler.

[anonymous-user]

It's ok, a new 'hot' Yaris is on the way

[underphil]

kambites said:

yonex said:

1250kg, heavy....a Ford Fiesta is likely 1200kg.

The current Fiesta ST quoted as <1100kg.

"quoted" = fictional BS for most manufacturers

From C&Ds test data:

500 Abarth : 1,154 KG
Cooper S : 1,258 KG
Fiesta ST : 1,248 KG
Golf GTI : 1,418 KG
GT86 : 1,250 KG

[kambites]

underphil said:

"quoted" = fictional BS for most manufacturers

True, although all the cars I've owned and weighed have been within a handful of precent of their official figures.

[anonymous-user]

underphil said:

"quoted" = fictional BS for most manufacturers

From C&Ds test data:

500 Abarth : 1,154 KG
Cooper S : 1,258 KG
Fiesta ST : 1,248 KG
Golf GTI : 1,418 KG
GT86 : 1,250 KG

Considering that a DC2, measured on a calibrated weigh bridge came in at 1120kg these people just aren't trying

So, we've established that the GT is not heavy then?

[underphil]

kambites said:

underphil said:

"quoted" = fictional BS for most manufacturers

True, although all the cars I've owned and weighed have been within a handful of precent of their official figures.

I guess you don't count the VRS as yours then

[dmitry]

kambites said:

Well the mk4 MX5 and mk3 MR2 are both under a tonne, and the uselessness of the rear seats in the GT86 make them the same class, IMO.

I agree that numbers don't matter in themselves, but the GT86's problem is that it feels heavy and rather lifeless compared to its competition. At least to me.

Edited by kambites on Friday 13th January 08:57

Sorry, couldn't agree. In a bit more than a year that I've had my 86 it's been used to carry:
my wife and 10 year old son plus luggage for a few day holiday on a 500 mile round trip,
a set of four 17" wheels with tyres (a few times),
a Mk2 MX5 gearbox,
and even a 6 feet Christmas tree.
None of these would be possible in an MX5.

As for your other point, supported by many others it's all very subjective. I personally find 86 a very entertaining drive and can't think of anything I could replace it with unless I win in a lottery but appreciate many will disagree.

[RDMcG]

I wasn't expecting this post to generate so much discussion but the reason I started it was because I was trying to understand why people buy very fast cars when most roads are speed limited. The usual reason given is that they are fun to drive. Manuals allow you to be engaged ,simple cars with no nannies sort out the real drivers from the posers. Thus the GT 86 should have been a mega hit. Practicality can't be such a big reason. Try loading an F type or a Cayman.

I was curious because I was thinking about my own motivations. I used to have a few manual cars but now have one. 9 year old GT3RS. Everything else is auto or PDK. When it comes to driving on fairly congested roads the RS in 50 mph traffic or stop and go stuff is far from being my first choice. So, in a way my PH credentials are slipping. Of course the odd track day is fun and a sporty car is rewarding ,though skilled track drivers do better than I do in more regular wheels. I will keep the old RS permanently just to have the option but I suspect I will not buy another. PDK works fine for me on road or track

Most modern high performance cars have recognized this and no longer offer manuals. I had all sorts of manual BMWs but even they got out of the raw performance car business. I recognize that there will always be Caterhams and the like and genuinely applaud those who drive them. However the GT86 for me is symptomatic of the fact that what people say and do is different.

[rallycross]

IdiotRace said:

Someone earlier in the thread said they were able to hire one? Has anyone got anymore information about this, I'd love to hire one for a fun weekend to drive upto some nice Scottish roads while the mr2 is having its engine rebuilt.

That was me but the rental was Herz when I was in Australia so I doubt you'd find one on a rental fleet in the UK.

I was lucky when I went to pick up my hire car (a basic Yaris) I saw there was a Gt86 parked two cars down from my rental so I went back to the office and asked if the Gt86 was really for hire and they said yes (I think it was only an extra $200).
So off I went very happy to get my hands on a brand new Gt86.
I did loads of miles in it, some motorway but mostly the country roads down by the Margret River wineries and coastal roads, and it was driven as any hire car should be ie oversteer in 2nd gear corners, donuts in car parks etc (tricky in Auz where the police are hiding in bushes waiting to fine anyone who enjoys driving).