Rumours of Zenos into administration..
Discussion
Olivera said:
Interesting that BAC seem to be going from strength to strength. Just watched the latest Shmee video on BAC and their factory is impressive, miles apart from the old TVR man in a shed factory. Very similar car but triple the price and it's succeeding.
Although I don't know about BAC's situation, an impressive factory and the impression of doing well is frequently not linked to reality. See: Weissmann
Olivera said:
Interesting that BAC seem to be going from strength to strength. Just watched the latest Shmee video on BAC and their factory is impressive, miles apart from the old TVR man in a shed factory. Very similar car but triple the price and it's succeeding.
There's no such thing as a cheap theatre ticket. 
RoverP6B said:
I've been waiting for this news ever since I first read of the E10 on Pistonheads. Easily the ugliest sports car on sale today (and going up against the hideous Alfa 4C, that's some achievement), and (IIRC?) turbocharged only? 4-cylinder engine kind of restricts its appeal to those who'd buy a used GT3 (or even a Boxster or Cayman) instead... I feel for the people involved, but it's no surprise really. The car was pursuing a near-invisible micro-niche, and making anything with no roof in this country is daft. It had nothing new to offer to Lotus owners, lacked the Caterham's iconic classic status and renowned handling excellencce, and similarly wasn't going to persuade anyone out of their Morgans...
Well good for you. You're so handsome and clever. I'm assuming that's what you wanted to hear.RoverP6B said:
It had nothing new to offer to Lotus owners
I can speak pretty clearly on this as I've owned multiple Lotus cars over the years and pretty much all Elise based models including S2 sport 190 and 211.Now Iv'e got my E10R and I can tell you 100% there is a lot new to offer lotus owners. The Toyota engines are great from a scientific point of view but many of the cars (including the 211) lacked "personality". Clinically excellent at their job but missing a "spark".
It's very similar discussion about the Ferrari 458 vs Mclaren MP4-12c. The macca is a faster car on all the paper stats but the 458 is still the car to have.
The E10 is a very different beast. Some say it's ugly which I get but to me it works really well (and personally it looks better with a windscreen).
The thought that has gone into it is amazing and 90% of which most drivers won't appreciate.
Overall it's more practical to use on the road than a 211 (I use mine pretty much as a daily driver), a hell of a lot faster, nicer place to sit and handles great. Sure the brakes are not a capable as the ABS setup in the 211 but the revised mk2 system that I have is everybit as good as the Elise's of old. Having a 2.3 means the natural low down torque makes for a rapid before the turbo even thinks about spooling up. Ford have done a cracking job with the ecoboost engine.
The E11 is/was a stunning looking car and solves some of the awkward lines of the E10. Doors, windows, roof, boot... A true alternative to the elise which after 20years is starting to show a bit. Would it have been successful? Who knows... But dammit, I would have liked to see it have the opportunity to try.
Is it a similar story with the Brooke car - that seemed like a promising, low volume manufacturer that just didn't seem to make it, either....(unless they are still producing it - but their website doesn't seem to have changed for a long time)
Shame as I always liked the look of it..
http://www.brookecars.co.uk/index.php
Shame as I always liked the look of it..
http://www.brookecars.co.uk/index.php
Selling these trackday machines into the normal car market can never work - the reality of UK life is that nobody wants to buy a car without a roof. 2-11 and 3-11 could never survive unless Lotus had a least a rudimentary road car business.
Trying to sell roofless cars is about as sensible as a blacksmith deciding to specialise in unicorn-shoes. Lots of clicks on the internet but no customers.
Trying to sell roofless cars is about as sensible as a blacksmith deciding to specialise in unicorn-shoes. Lots of clicks on the internet but no customers.
charltjr said:
<sigh>
For (hopefully) the last time, there was a waiting list for the cars, they were limited by capacity to make the cars not by a lack of sales.
Can you expand on that, as it comes across as quite naive. For (hopefully) the last time, there was a waiting list for the cars, they were limited by capacity to make the cars not by a lack of sales.
If you have a full order book with deposits, then you can get financial backing to aid cash flow and related issues.
Can you also define a 'waiting list' - does it equate to 1 vehicle beyond capacity, or 100s?
One another note, it would be interesting to know more about Atom's model and financial performance given they have been around for some 15 years now. They're the only New Co. that i can think of who has weathered the storm.
Cash flow is always very difficult and they had orders for cars that out-stripped supply. By September last year, 2016 order books were full and they were taking orders for Q1 2017.
The initial deposit for a car was very modest and as I understand it large order for Australia was pulled at the last minute. Rightly or wrongly, Zenos operated with a customer friendly approach and deposits were largely refundable. I can't remember the details but can dig them out, however I do recall being completely happy that if I changed my mind even after the car was being built that I would only lose a tiny fraction of the purchase price.
The initial deposit for a car was very modest and as I understand it large order for Australia was pulled at the last minute. Rightly or wrongly, Zenos operated with a customer friendly approach and deposits were largely refundable. I can't remember the details but can dig them out, however I do recall being completely happy that if I changed my mind even after the car was being built that I would only lose a tiny fraction of the purchase price.
hondansx said:
Can you expand on that, as it comes across as quite naive.
If you have a full order book with deposits, then you can get financial backing to aid cash flow and related issues.
Can you also define a 'waiting list' - does it equate to 1 vehicle beyond capacity, or 100s?
One another note, it would be interesting to know more about Atom's model and financial performance given they have been around for some 15 years now. They're the only New Co. that i can think of who has weathered the storm.
They are operating on 12-14 month lead time the last time I spoke to them. Both the Nomad and the Atom are doing ok, as is the Ace. Residuals are very strong as well, helped by the lead times obviously. A more helpful factory you couldn't ask for, they're a very decent bunch to deal with. If you have a full order book with deposits, then you can get financial backing to aid cash flow and related issues.
Can you also define a 'waiting list' - does it equate to 1 vehicle beyond capacity, or 100s?
One another note, it would be interesting to know more about Atom's model and financial performance given they have been around for some 15 years now. They're the only New Co. that i can think of who has weathered the storm.
rockin said:
Selling these trackday machines into the normal car market can never work - the reality of UK life is that nobody wants to buy a car without a roof. 2-11 and 3-11 could never survive unless Lotus had a least a rudimentary road car business.
Trying to sell roofless cars is about as sensible as a blacksmith deciding to specialise in unicorn-shoes. Lots of clicks on the internet but no customers.
<sigh>Trying to sell roofless cars is about as sensible as a blacksmith deciding to specialise in unicorn-shoes. Lots of clicks on the internet but no customers.
The E10 was always a means to an end. It was there to get the company running, sort out production of a new chassis technology and prove the concept. It was never ever intended to be the only car Zenos sold. Why people can't seem to pick up on that I just don't understand. This three model line up was always the plan right from the very outset.
The E11 (couple) and E12 (roadster) both had full windscreens, boot, storage, radio, doors, windows.... everything. Proper little all weather sports cars.
yonex said:
They are operating on 12-14 month lead time the last time I spoke to them. Both the Nomad and the Atom are doing ok, as is the Ace. Residuals are very strong as well, helped by the lead times obviously. A more helpful factory you couldn't ask for, they're a very decent bunch to deal with.
The Atom has the advantage of using traditional materials and chassis design. Zenos tried something new and to try to move towards type approval to unlock proper sales. The Atom isn't ever going to head that way.ads_green said:
Cash flow is always very difficult and they had orders for cars that out-stripped supply. By September last year, 2016 order books were full and they were taking orders for Q1 2017.
The initial deposit for a car was very modest and as I understand it large order for Australia was pulled at the last minute. Rightly or wrongly, Zenos operated with a customer friendly approach and deposits were largely refundable. I can't remember the details but can dig them out, however I do recall being completely happy that if I changed my mind even after the car was being built that I would only lose a tiny fraction of the purchase price.
I understand they were building cars to fulfill orders from Australia and China. They were having to rent space to store cars that were ready for export. I wasn't sure if I should talk about it on here, but it seems a moot point now. The initial deposit for a car was very modest and as I understand it large order for Australia was pulled at the last minute. Rightly or wrongly, Zenos operated with a customer friendly approach and deposits were largely refundable. I can't remember the details but can dig them out, however I do recall being completely happy that if I changed my mind even after the car was being built that I would only lose a tiny fraction of the purchase price.
If those orders were suddenly cancelled, it would obviously have a big impact on a small company dependent on cash flow.
The constant refrain is "you can't sell cars in th UK without doors and a roof", but Zenos had successfully exported half the cars they made. The car market extends beyond our shores. And the E10 was only there to prove the technology and get their name out there. Before too long they would have been focused on selling coupes and targas.
As ads_green says they were very customer friendly in everything they did. I wonder if perhaps the foreign deals were done on a handshake, rather than a watertight contract.
I'm still hopeful someone will step in to save the company.
ads_green said:
The Atom has the advantage of using traditional materials and chassis design.
The Ariels are simply a steel chassis. Everything else is an off-the-shelf component hung on that chassis.They have almost no R&D costs, no engineering costs, no stock-holding costs, no industrial tooling costs (the factory is a large shed) and a very small workforce. They found a tiny niche and filled it well. Others need not apply.
KTM got themselves in a complete pickle with the much more complex X-Bow. Would have gone bust were it not for the motorcycle business keeping them afloat.
See also - Renault Spyder sport.
No roof = hopeless sales figures.
rockin said:
The Ariels are simply a steel chassis. Everything else is an off-the-shelf component hung on that chassis.
They have almost no R&D costs, no engineering costs, no stock-holding costs, no industrial tooling costs (the factory is a large shed) and a very small workforce. They found a tiny niche and filled it well. Others need not apply.
KTM got themselves in a complete pickle with the much more complex X-Bow. Would have gone bust were it not for the motorcycle business keeping them afloat.
See also - Renault Spyder sport.
No roof = hopeless sales figures.
You're remarkably well informed about Ariel. Have you ever actually been there? Anyway, the thing is, you're wrong. They have almost no R&D costs, no engineering costs, no stock-holding costs, no industrial tooling costs (the factory is a large shed) and a very small workforce. They found a tiny niche and filled it well. Others need not apply.
KTM got themselves in a complete pickle with the much more complex X-Bow. Would have gone bust were it not for the motorcycle business keeping them afloat.
See also - Renault Spyder sport.
No roof = hopeless sales figures.
yonex said:
They are operating on 12-14 month lead time the last time I spoke to them. Both the Nomad and the Atom are doing ok, as is the Ace. Residuals are very strong as well, helped by the lead times obviously. A more helpful factory you couldn't ask for, they're a very decent bunch to deal with.
If you have a look at their financials they're in very rude health. It wouldn't surprise me if their profit per car was one of the highest.Nomad certainly has a decent lead time and Atom 4 when it arrives will be type approved.
UK facility is by no means 'a shed', its purpose built and fits the need admirably without being a financial millstone (very sensible).
They're manufactured under license in America as well, and have a good export market.
Its interesting to note that there's "no market for a car without a roof" yet Ariel have managed to be successful building 2 different cars in this 'non existent' market segment...?
Bike's don't have roofs either and there's a few of those out and about.
As it happens I test drove a Zenos and then bought an Atom...why?...because it was way more fun and put a much bigger smile on my face.
People are saying that Zenos needed to bring out a roof version but I disagree, what they needed to do was improve the driving & visual experience not detract from it by sticking a roof on. That said Ariel wouldn't go too far wrong if they do something along these lines...
The Zenos should have been a car that really appealed to me, being a long term Caterham and Elise owner.
But it never captured my imagination at all. Ugly (to my eyes) and no doubt (too) competent but somewhat boring in comparison to a K Series Seven etc.
Not as extreme a car as I would want and on the flipside, not practical enough. It really fell between two stools in my opinion.
If it was better looking and a proper roof, it may have done better.
Or it had to completely blow the Lotus and Caterham away as a driving machine which was never going to happen. If it had won something like ECOTY then it would have done wonders for Zenos but it wasn't even a contender.
It was just not exciting enough. And being a new company, they absolute had to offer something different which they didn't do.
But I would love to try an Atom and Nomad and entirely see their appeal...
But it never captured my imagination at all. Ugly (to my eyes) and no doubt (too) competent but somewhat boring in comparison to a K Series Seven etc.
Not as extreme a car as I would want and on the flipside, not practical enough. It really fell between two stools in my opinion.
If it was better looking and a proper roof, it may have done better.
Or it had to completely blow the Lotus and Caterham away as a driving machine which was never going to happen. If it had won something like ECOTY then it would have done wonders for Zenos but it wasn't even a contender.
It was just not exciting enough. And being a new company, they absolute had to offer something different which they didn't do.
But I would love to try an Atom and Nomad and entirely see their appeal...
I tested an Atom 3 and ended up buying the lower powered heavier 211.
I found the Atom handling to be inconsistent - almost impossible to keep it doing what it needed to do. In one corner it could understeer then oversteer then back to understeer. almost as if the power overloaded the chassis capabilities. I've since been told the Atom 2 is the sweet spot but by then i was happy with 211.
I do think people need to remember that both Elise's and Atoms have had many years of fine tuning to properly sort the handling. Zenos had already moved on a huge way from the original e10 and my e10R within 6 months had already enjoyed a large number of updates and refinements. Early reviews criticised the brakes and gearshift (both very valid points) but both were resolved.
I found the Atom handling to be inconsistent - almost impossible to keep it doing what it needed to do. In one corner it could understeer then oversteer then back to understeer. almost as if the power overloaded the chassis capabilities. I've since been told the Atom 2 is the sweet spot but by then i was happy with 211.
I do think people need to remember that both Elise's and Atoms have had many years of fine tuning to properly sort the handling. Zenos had already moved on a huge way from the original e10 and my e10R within 6 months had already enjoyed a large number of updates and refinements. Early reviews criticised the brakes and gearshift (both very valid points) but both were resolved.
Agree-The early Atoms were known to be twitchy but they resolved it, particularly with the 3 and 3.5R.
However despite the early cars not getting great reviews, Ariel are doing very well. I think that's because they offered something new and exciting which arguably Zenos did not. Atoms have always been a bit crazy which inevitably helps and they are a different proposition to a Seven for instance.
But most people, myself included would find the appeal of an Elise and dare I say it, Lotus badge, a stronger pull than an E10. The Zenos just seemed a bit too polished and dare I say it, boring as a result.
However despite the early cars not getting great reviews, Ariel are doing very well. I think that's because they offered something new and exciting which arguably Zenos did not. Atoms have always been a bit crazy which inevitably helps and they are a different proposition to a Seven for instance.
But most people, myself included would find the appeal of an Elise and dare I say it, Lotus badge, a stronger pull than an E10. The Zenos just seemed a bit too polished and dare I say it, boring as a result.
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