Rumours of Zenos into administration..
Discussion
i thought they looked great, its the price i had an issue with... on the face of it a E10 @ £20 odd K looked about right, until you realised that what you actually needed was the E10S with options and a proper warranty length and all over a sudden your at over £40k! thats serious car money
I would really have liked this bold innovative company to have flourished in the way it deserved.DonkeyApple said:
Yup. 5 charges from three separate entities. All it probably took was one to call theirs in.
Maybe we'll know who when we see who buys the assets at rock bottom value?
Certainly sounds like a difference of opinion between the management and investors/partners. I found it a little odd when Ali left so soon.Maybe we'll know who when we see who buys the assets at rock bottom value?
Really is a shame. Beauty is always subjective but I thought these looked great, always had good reviews and had all the ingredients to be a stayer in the admittedly cut throat and keenly priced market they were in.
Without knowing the ins and outs it'd be interesting to know the reason behind the cancelled orders. If the cancelled orders caused jitters in one of the lenders and cashflow meant they couldn't pay when demanded, then maybe it's as simple as that.
Fingers crossed they don't disappear into the ether, but I can't see Lotus or Caterham buying them - it's not as if they have a history of acquiring other brands.
Without knowing the ins and outs it'd be interesting to know the reason behind the cancelled orders. If the cancelled orders caused jitters in one of the lenders and cashflow meant they couldn't pay when demanded, then maybe it's as simple as that.
Fingers crossed they don't disappear into the ether, but I can't see Lotus or Caterham buying them - it's not as if they have a history of acquiring other brands.
ex1 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. 5 charges from three separate entities. All it probably took was one to call theirs in.
Maybe we'll know who when we see who buys the assets at rock bottom value?
Certainly sounds like a difference of opinion between the management and investors/partners. I found it a little odd when Ali left so soon.Maybe we'll know who when we see who buys the assets at rock bottom value?
Who knows, but directors bailing early always suggests a break down of agreement in direction or a failure to deliver. But the real question for anyone looking at the remnants is whether the current car had enough sales to justify it standing in its own now the investment costs are to be written off and probably much of the cash burn was linked to developing the new models. If they were selling 100 cars a year and that number looked to be solid or growing then there could be merit in continuing production.
rockin said:
CaptainCosworth said:
A shame, but I do think the market for expensive track day toys is very saturated, there's only so many people that can afford to spend £30k+ on something they'll only use for the occasional Sunday morning blast, and a handful of track days a year.
Yes, it's as simple as that.I hope someone buys it and releases the new body types which they told me were in development*.
* May have been marketing hype though.
Edited by skidskid on Thursday 19th January 10:01
Edited by skidskid on Thursday 19th January 10:01
I came away bitterly disappointed with the car after spending a day with zenos at snetterton. I had high hopes, and was expecting a great car both on road and track. It just didn't excite me in any way. It was safe, predictible, not uncomfortable, handled well, and reasonably fast (I was in the S which on paper was the car for me) but at no point did I feel connected to it. I guess I went expecting an Atom and came away feeling it was an underpowered caterham.
And as pointed out above - I was in the market for exactly this product. But the one I needed was the R, with options. And the R was £40k+...
Build quality wasn't great but was acceptable, parts were cheap so if you crash it it's easy (which WAS a win in my book) but overall it was just a bit 'meh'.
They were relying on a few big export orders it seemed - they spoke to me about a large order to Australia (iirc) which seems to have fallen through. It's regrettable of course, but I do wonder how many people felt like me with the experience and perhaps the orderbooks weren't as full as you'd believe, once you remove the export order(s).
And as pointed out above - I was in the market for exactly this product. But the one I needed was the R, with options. And the R was £40k+...
Build quality wasn't great but was acceptable, parts were cheap so if you crash it it's easy (which WAS a win in my book) but overall it was just a bit 'meh'.
They were relying on a few big export orders it seemed - they spoke to me about a large order to Australia (iirc) which seems to have fallen through. It's regrettable of course, but I do wonder how many people felt like me with the experience and perhaps the orderbooks weren't as full as you'd believe, once you remove the export order(s).
Fetchez la vache said:
Really is a shame. Beauty is always subjective but I thought these looked great,
It Very much is and I thought they looked atrocious, properly cheap kit car appearance, especially when they did the multi-coloured panels and the windscreen looked hideous... then recently there was pictures of an all black aero screen one and it looked Alot better, I think very careful colour choice was necessary.I also wonder if the use of turbo engines without much noise and the 80's space age interior didn't help?
Another problem is do you risk buying from a new start-up or plump for a safe choice from a long term business... they haven't yet got over the start-up bump so were reliant on brave customers.
As you say- a shame for anyone who put money in or as a job there, the chassis technology has promise, I wonder if it might find use elsewhere?
em177 said:
Unfortunately people don't really want small lightweight cars. Well, at least not apart from a few select enthusiasts. Just take a read of the GT86 thread.
The public want 300bhp hot hatches or Audi diesels. Shame.
I see quite a few MX-5s about...I suppose it has a broader appeal outside of car enthusiasts though. The public want 300bhp hot hatches or Audi diesels. Shame.
Rossdagley said:
I came away bitterly disappointed with the car after spending a day with zenos at snetterton. I had high hopes, and was expecting a great car both on road and track. It just didn't excite me in any way. It was safe, predictible, not uncomfortable, handled well, and reasonably fast (I was in the S which on paper was the car for me) but at no point did I feel connected to it. I guess I went expecting an Atom and came away feeling it was an underpowered caterham.
And as pointed out above - I was in the market for exactly this product. But the one I needed was the R, with options. And the R was £40k+...
Build quality wasn't great but was acceptable, parts were cheap so if you crash it it's easy (which WAS a win in my book) but overall it was just a bit 'meh'.
They were relying on a few big export orders it seemed - they spoke to me about a large order to Australia (iirc) which seems to have fallen through. It's regrettable of course, but I do wonder how many people felt like me with the experience and perhaps the orderbooks weren't as full as you'd believe, once you remove the export order(s).
What did you buy in the end then?And as pointed out above - I was in the market for exactly this product. But the one I needed was the R, with options. And the R was £40k+...
Build quality wasn't great but was acceptable, parts were cheap so if you crash it it's easy (which WAS a win in my book) but overall it was just a bit 'meh'.
They were relying on a few big export orders it seemed - they spoke to me about a large order to Australia (iirc) which seems to have fallen through. It's regrettable of course, but I do wonder how many people felt like me with the experience and perhaps the orderbooks weren't as full as you'd believe, once you remove the export order(s).
Sid123 said:
All exports are invoiced in GBP so the cars have become even better value than they already were to a foreign buyer in almost any currency.
However, Brexit has nothing to do with the current situation.
As I understand it and as Dan's article has alluded to there was a cancellation/non-performance of a significant order which disrupted cashflow unexpectedly IMHO.
The cars are fantastic, very good value for the performance they offer (they are very quick) and the people at Zenos are some of the most enthusiastic I have ever met.
As I said earlier I had the pleasure of doing some work with them in 2016. More than thoroughly enjoyable.
Having owned and E10S and now an E10R I feel qualified to be able to say the cars are an excellent drive, well assembled and in my eyes superb looking (as long as it's fitted with a windscreen).
If the company doesn't survive it would be a travesty in my mind as I believe they have E11 developed and there is a significant waiting list for the cars.
Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope there is a positive outcome as I'd be gutted for the Zenos team who have done a brilliant job in only 3/4 years or so.
Although the pound fall makes exports more profitable or cheaper in theory, it doesn't always work out like that (witness the balance of payments has got worse since the vote). One factor is that raw materials are more expensive (we don't mine bauxite or iron ore in the UK), also many components are priced in euros or dollars. The volatility of the pound means that some suppliers will be building in extra margin to account for fluctuations, I believe this would be worse for a small supplier with little buying power.However, Brexit has nothing to do with the current situation.
As I understand it and as Dan's article has alluded to there was a cancellation/non-performance of a significant order which disrupted cashflow unexpectedly IMHO.
The cars are fantastic, very good value for the performance they offer (they are very quick) and the people at Zenos are some of the most enthusiastic I have ever met.
As I said earlier I had the pleasure of doing some work with them in 2016. More than thoroughly enjoyable.
Having owned and E10S and now an E10R I feel qualified to be able to say the cars are an excellent drive, well assembled and in my eyes superb looking (as long as it's fitted with a windscreen).
If the company doesn't survive it would be a travesty in my mind as I believe they have E11 developed and there is a significant waiting list for the cars.
Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope there is a positive outcome as I'd be gutted for the Zenos team who have done a brilliant job in only 3/4 years or so.
For the big companies a major factor in the pound not having an impact is their hedging positions. Many businesses hedged well ahead before the vote, because it was widely believed common sense would win and the pound would then surge. So some businesses will get a benefit once their hedge position expires and will then have a short window until they lose out due to tariffs being introduced...
Very sad to hear Zenos are in serious trouble, they seemed like they had a much better product and business plan than the average UK car start-up.
Being honest I was never that keen on the look of the Zenos. Saying that though it is a real shame to see the company get into trouble and have to call in the Administrators. They seemed to have gotten over the challenges of getting models out and sold and seemed (from afar) to be going from strength to strength with the new models.
Here is hoping that they get some investment to continue the work. If TVR can be restored from the ashes lets hope that Zenos can get an investor who believes in the product and has the nous to build the business into a success.
Here is hoping that they get some investment to continue the work. If TVR can be restored from the ashes lets hope that Zenos can get an investor who believes in the product and has the nous to build the business into a success.
Rossdagley said:
I came away bitterly disappointed with the car after spending a day with zenos at snetterton. I had high hopes, and was expecting a great car both on road and track. It just didn't excite me in any way. It was safe, predictible, not uncomfortable, handled well, and reasonably fast (I was in the S which on paper was the car for me) but at no point did I feel connected to it. I guess I went expecting an Atom and came away feeling it was an underpowered caterham...
Even an underpowered Caterham would still make for a fine involving drive...MrLizard said:
unfortunately i thought that Lotus might be in a bit of bother as well ?
You're a bit out of date with that. They are doing well (for Lotus) and are in the black.I've said it before but with an amazing F1 background, world reknowned reputation for handling prowess and lightweight car manta, even Lotus have struggled massively over the years. Its incredibly hard to replicate this business model and logic says 'Just don't'.
No doors or roof etc is a major issue for many buyers in the UK, a nation of petrolheads who can have a big influence on car sales in other countries.
IIRC when Lotus were making the Elise, Caterham was making the 21 and it cost Lotus £1m just to design the doors on the Elise, a fraction of what the total car development cost was for Caterham. That was in the mid 90s...
The Zenos, like it not is today's Caterham 21, struggling against the Elise, even if it pretended it wasn't.
So, the company has paid for R&D, developed a popular and highly-reviewed car, got orders, but cannot pay its bills.
There is obviously a wonderful opportunity for somebody to buy the assets and continue production, unencumbered by prior liabilities, much of which will be written off.
Hopefully, the current employees (who arguably represent much of the value of the enterprise anyway) are able to organise themselves sufficiently to buy the company and take it to the next stage - road cars that appeal to mass-market consumers more than the E10 does.
There is obviously a wonderful opportunity for somebody to buy the assets and continue production, unencumbered by prior liabilities, much of which will be written off.
Hopefully, the current employees (who arguably represent much of the value of the enterprise anyway) are able to organise themselves sufficiently to buy the company and take it to the next stage - road cars that appeal to mass-market consumers more than the E10 does.
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