Performance stats BMW 850?

[E24man]

That Alpina B12 5.7 Coupe is the last one ever made and has done over 250,000km; the details on it are simply beautiful and it's fantastic that the owner still racks up the miles on it. It has the very rare Shift-Tronic manual gearbox.

[Tango13]

This details the history of nearly every V12 ever used in a car.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/V12-Engine-technology-per...

[Schermerhorn]

Devil2575 said:

I think that the BMW V12 engine is a bit like the 3.5 litre V8. Barely more powerful than engine below it in the range, i.e the 4.4 litre V8 (3 litre 6 for the 3.5) while offering worse mpg and higher maintenance costs. BMW should have made the V12 more powerful to put some clear air between it and the V8.

I agree. Look at the W140 6.0 V12 that came out around the same time, it was around 400BHP; it was ultra smooth, refined and way more powerful than any Ferrari of the time (348 TB and Testarossa I believe) and it really left BMW in its wake.

[MarshPhantom]

MarshPhantom said:

Wills2 said:

MarshPhantom said:

But I've also seen tests online saying the 850 is around 7.5s. My Mercedes will do 60 in 2nd.

And it will do 150 in 4th.

Possibly because it's a 4 speed gearbox.

Edited by MarshPhantom on Friday 20th January 22:22

And I doubt any rice pudding skins were hurt in the process....

The 0-60 isn't great because it's a bit slow off the mark. The way it builds speed at higher speeds is still genuinely pretty impressive.

Well, I did burn off an new M120d at the lights yesterday, he was definitely trying. Site online says 0-60 of 7.1s for that , 7.3s for the 850.

[E24man]

Schermerhorn said:

Devil2575 said:

I think that the BMW V12 engine is a bit like the 3.5 litre V8. Barely more powerful than engine below it in the range, i.e the 4.4 litre V8 (3 litre 6 for the 3.5) while offering worse mpg and higher maintenance costs. BMW should have made the V12 more powerful to put some clear air between it and the V8.

I agree. Look at the W140 6.0 V12 that came out around the same time, it was around 400BHP; it was ultra smooth, refined and way more powerful than any Ferrari of the time (348 TB and Testarossa I believe) and it really left BMW in its wake.

That's not really comparing like for like imho.

The 5.0 litre 24 valve V12 BMW engine was introduced in 1987 with 300bhp
The 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 Benz engine was introduced in 1992 with 394bhp

The 5.0 BMW engine made 350bhp from Alpina in 1988.
By 1992 BMW enlarged it to 5.7 litres with with 380bhp, with the Alpina 5.7 version making 416bhp.

When Alpina eventually made it up to 6.0 litres it made 430bhp, but as above, still only with 24 valves. By this time Mercedes were using the lighter, smaller and more reliable M137 6.0 V12 36 valve engine with 367 bhp.

When Paul Rosche of BMW made it into a 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 engine it made quite a lot more power.

I agree the 300bhp might seem underwhelming now and the E31 chassis and body was far too heavy for that power but year by year and like for like with valves it stands in good stead with the Mercedes M120 and M137 V12 engines.

Edited by E24man on Monday 23 January 12:01

[J4CKO]

They were on par with contemporaries like the Porsche 928, there wasnt much over 300 bhp that wasnt a Ferrari or Lambo back then, even the 478 bhp of an F40 wouldnt win you a hand of Top Trumps nowadays.

[anonymous-user]

MarshPhantom said:

Well, I did burn off an new M120d at the lights yesterday, he was definitely trying. Site online says 0-60 of 7.1s for that , 7.3s for the 850.

You'd have really shown him who was the daddy in the much more important 60 - 120 sprint.

[Devil2575]

E24man said:

That's not really comparing like for like imho.

The 5.0 litre 24 valve V12 BMW engine was introduced in 1987 with 300bhp
The 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 Benz engine was introduced in 1992 with 394bhp

The 5.0 BMW engine made 350bhp from Alpina in 1988.
By 1992 BMW enlarged it to 5.7 litres with with 380bhp, with the Alpina 5.7 version making 416bhp.

When Alpina eventually made it up to 6.0 litres it made 430bhp, but as above, still only with 24 valves. By this time Mercedes were using the lighter, smaller and more reliable M137 6.0 V12 36 valve engine with 367 bhp.

When Paul Rosche of BMW made it into a 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 engine it made quite a lot more power.

I agree the 300bhp might seem underwhelming now and the E31 chassis and body was far too heavy for that power but year by year and like for like with valves it stands in good stead with the Mercedes M120 and M137 V12 engines.

Edited by E24man on Monday 23 January 12:01

How much power it made relative to other contemporary V12s isn't the point though,the problem was it only made 10 bhp more than the 840i.

[Schermerhorn]

E24man said:

Schermerhorn said:

Devil2575 said:

I think that the BMW V12 engine is a bit like the 3.5 litre V8. Barely more powerful than engine below it in the range, i.e the 4.4 litre V8 (3 litre 6 for the 3.5) while offering worse mpg and higher maintenance costs. BMW should have made the V12 more powerful to put some clear air between it and the V8.

I agree. Look at the W140 6.0 V12 that came out around the same time, it was around 400BHP; it was ultra smooth, refined and way more powerful than any Ferrari of the time (348 TB and Testarossa I believe) and it really left BMW in its wake.

That's not really comparing like for like imho.

The 5.0 litre 24 valve V12 BMW engine was introduced in 1987 with 300bhp
The 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 Benz engine was introduced in 1992 with 394bhp

The 5.0 BMW engine made 350bhp from Alpina in 1988.
By 1992 BMW enlarged it to 5.7 litres with with 380bhp, with the Alpina 5.7 version making 416bhp.

When Alpina eventually made it up to 6.0 litres it made 430bhp, but as above, still only with 24 valves. By this time Mercedes were using the lighter, smaller and more reliable M137 6.0 V12 36 valve engine with 367 bhp.

When Paul Rosche of BMW made it into a 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 engine it made quite a lot more power.

I agree the 300bhp might seem underwhelming now and the E31 chassis and body was far too heavy for that power but year by year and like for like with valves it stands in good stead with the Mercedes M120 and M137 V12 engines.

Edited by E24man on Monday 23 January 12:01

I agree with your assessment. However, to the average yuppie punter who was buying these these things in the late 80s and early 90s it was a game of Top Trumps and end raw figures mattered more than the background engineering behind it.

[MarshPhantom]

E24man said:

That's not really comparing like for like imho.

The 5.0 litre 24 valve V12 BMW engine was introduced in 1987 with 300bhp
The 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 Benz engine was introduced in 1992 with 394bhp

The 5.0 BMW engine made 350bhp from Alpina in 1988.
By 1992 BMW enlarged it to 5.7 litres with with 380bhp, with the Alpina 5.7 version making 416bhp.

When Alpina eventually made it up to 6.0 litres it made 430bhp, but as above, still only with 24 valves. By this time Mercedes were using the lighter, smaller and more reliable M137 6.0 V12 36 valve engine with 367 bhp.

When Paul Rosche of BMW made it into a 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 engine it made quite a lot more power.

I agree the 300bhp might seem underwhelming

Mercedes where getting 240 bhp from their 3.0 N/A Six-pot.

[E24man]

MarshPhantom said:

E24man said:

That's not really comparing like for like imho.

The 5.0 litre 24 valve V12 BMW engine was introduced in 1987 with 300bhp
The 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 Benz engine was introduced in 1992 with 394bhp

The 5.0 BMW engine made 350bhp from Alpina in 1988.
By 1992 BMW enlarged it to 5.7 litres with with 380bhp, with the Alpina 5.7 version making 416bhp.

When Alpina eventually made it up to 6.0 litres it made 430bhp, but as above, still only with 24 valves. By this time Mercedes were using the lighter, smaller and more reliable M137 6.0 V12 36 valve engine with 367 bhp.

When Paul Rosche of BMW made it into a 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 engine it made quite a lot more power.

Mercedes where getting 240 bhp from their 3.0 N/A Six-pot.

And BMW were getting 235bhp from their 2.5 N/A 4 -pot, but I fail to see your point.

Devil2575 said:

How much power it made relative to other contemporary V12s isn't the point though,the problem was it only made 10 bhp more than the 840i.

There was a comparison made against the contemporary V12's so I tried to address it but you chose not to quote it. In terms of your point about the 850 engine in comparison to the 840 engine it was 14bhp difference to start with and 30bhp later but regardless of that the V12 E31's still outsold the V8 E31's by a factor of 3 to 1 so perhaps back then BMW did know their customers rather better than you do retrospectively?

[helix402]

As above, the E31 was launched with the V12, the V8 was a later addition and more advanced, hence more power/litre.

[derin100]

E31Shrew said:

With a nod to Derin, my 840 Sport. Sold a couple of years ago and forever regretting it.

I knew you would regret it!

Did I tell you what the BMW Car Club valued mine at just before Xmas?

If not and if you can make it, do you fancy walking 100 yards up the hill one evening to the Oxon for a couple of pints? I'll tell you just as you take a gulp of your beer and watch you nearly choke when you hear it!

(Craig...if you haven't done it recently you should seriously consider getting an up to date valuation done on yours. )

[E31Shrew]

derin100 said:

E31Shrew said:

With a nod to Derin, my 840 Sport. Sold a couple of years ago and forever regretting it.

I knew you would regret it!

Did I tell you what the BMW Car Club valued mine at just before Xmas?

If not and if you can make it, do you fancy walking 100 yards up the hill one evening to the Oxon for a couple of pints? I'll tell you just as you take a gulp of your beer and watch you nearly choke when you hear it!

(Craig...if you haven't done it recently you should seriously consider getting an up to date valuation done on yours. )

100 yards! Bit more but sounds good. Will pop you a text next week and I really don't want to hear how much your BMW Capri is worth!

[CRA1G]

derin100 said:

I knew you would regret it!

Did I tell you what the BMW Car Club valued mine at just before Xmas?

If not and if you can make it, do you fancy walking 100 yards up the hill one evening to the Oxon for a couple of pints? I'll tell you just as you take a gulp of your beer and watch you nearly choke when you hear it!

(Craig...if you haven't done it recently you should seriously consider getting an up to date valuation done on yours. )

Interesting... but i presume you have to be a member (which I'm not) to get a valuation...? Mine's a 98 R reg 840 Sport "Dakar individual" (one of 32) 66K FSH and original standard spec... what is its value today...?

[MarshPhantom]

E24man said:

MarshPhantom said:

E24man said:

That's not really comparing like for like imho.

The 5.0 litre 24 valve V12 BMW engine was introduced in 1987 with 300bhp
The 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 Benz engine was introduced in 1992 with 394bhp

The 5.0 BMW engine made 350bhp from Alpina in 1988.
By 1992 BMW enlarged it to 5.7 litres with with 380bhp, with the Alpina 5.7 version making 416bhp.

When Alpina eventually made it up to 6.0 litres it made 430bhp, but as above, still only with 24 valves. By this time Mercedes were using the lighter, smaller and more reliable M137 6.0 V12 36 valve engine with 367 bhp.

When Paul Rosche of BMW made it into a 6.0 litre 48 valve V12 engine it made quite a lot more power.

Mercedes where getting 240 bhp from their 3.0 N/A Six-pot.

And BMW were getting 235bhp from their 2.5 N/A 4 -pot, but I fail to see your point.

Devil2575 said:

How much power it made relative to other contemporary V12s isn't the point though,the problem was it only made 10 bhp more than the 840i.

There was a comparison made against the contemporary V12's so I tried to address it but you chose not to quote it. In terms of your point about the 850 engine in comparison to the 840 engine it was 14bhp difference to start with and 30bhp later but regardless of that the V12 E31's still outsold the V8 E31's by a factor of 3 to 1 so perhaps back then BMW did know their customers rather better than you do retrospectively?

The point is the power output of the 3 Litre 6 pot Mercedes engine is far more respectable than the 5.0 V12 BMW.
.

[E24man]

So following your logic the BMW 2.5 litre engine output is far more respectable than the 3.0 Mercedes engine.

Not exactly much of a point to this exact thread when neither of the engines were put in the top of the BMW and Mercedes range Coupes is it?

[dbdb]

The 1990s was a time of very rapidly rising engine power outputs over that decade. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, 300 bhp was big power. There were very few cars which produced more than 300 bhp. A glance through my 1991 What Car listings shows no Mercedes with more; the 560SEL/SEC matched it, also developing 300 bhp. The 911 Turbo is listed at 320 Bhp. It would be fair to say they were regarded as a very powerful car indeed at that time. The 911 Carrera 2 and Carrera 4 is listed at 250bhp. Of course they are much faster since they are much lighter - but the BMW was a GT and never a sports car. And a very powerful one.

[derin100]

CRA1G said:

derin100 said:

I knew you would regret it!

Did I tell you what the BMW Car Club valued mine at just before Xmas?

If not and if you can make it, do you fancy walking 100 yards up the hill one evening to the Oxon for a couple of pints? I'll tell you just as you take a gulp of your beer and watch you nearly choke when you hear it!

(Craig...if you haven't done it recently you should seriously consider getting an up to date valuation done on yours. )

No, you don't have to be a member. There is a fee but it's only slightly higher than if you are a member.

Interesting... but i presume you have to be a member (which I'm not) to get a valuation...? Mine's a 98 R reg 840 Sport "Dakar individual" (one of 32) 66K FSH and original standard spec... what is its value today...?

No, you don't have to be a member. There is a fee but it's only slightly higher than if you are a member.

[s m]

dbdb said:

The 1990s was a time of very rapidly rising engine power outputs over that decade. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, 300 bhp was big power. There were very few cars which produced more than 300 bhp. A glance through my 1991 What Car listings shows no Mercedes with more; the 560SEL/SEC matched it, also developing 300 bhp. The 911 Turbo is listed at 320 Bhp. It would be fair to say they were regarded as a very powerful car indeed at that time. The 911 Carrera 2 and Carrera 4 is listed at 250bhp. Of course they are much faster since they are much lighter - but the BMW was a GT and never a sports car. And a very powerful one.

Merc 500E?