Performance stats BMW 850?
Discussion
The Mercedes 500E was introduced 3 years after the E31 V12, a 32-valve 5 litre V8 and bonkers expensive for its 22bhp more. It might have seemed a high power output but within a year or two Alpina had got 340bhp from the same valves and layout but 400cc's less.
There is no doubting it is a lovely thing but it was already largely eclipsed in its class by the turbo-era 1989 Alpina B10 Bi-Turbo and the ubiquitous Lotus Carlton of 1990.
There is no doubting it is a lovely thing but it was already largely eclipsed in its class by the turbo-era 1989 Alpina B10 Bi-Turbo and the ubiquitous Lotus Carlton of 1990.
E24man said:
The Mercedes 500E was introduced 3 years after the E31 V12, a 32-valve 5 litre V8 and bonkers expensive for its 22bhp more. It might have seemed a high power output but within a year or two Alpina had got 340bhp from the same valves and layout but 400cc's less.
There is no doubting it is a lovely thing but it was already largely eclipsed in its class by the turbo-era 1989 Alpina B10 Bi-Turbo and the ubiquitous Lotus Carlton of 1990.
All true - I was just mentioning it as dbdb hadn't included it in his over 300bhp Merc listThere is no doubting it is a lovely thing but it was already largely eclipsed in its class by the turbo-era 1989 Alpina B10 Bi-Turbo and the ubiquitous Lotus Carlton of 1990.
dbdb said:
The 1990s was a time of very rapidly rising engine power outputs over that decade. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, 300 bhp was big power. There were very few cars which produced more than 300 bhp. A glance through my 1991 What Car listings shows no Mercedes with more; the 560SEL/SEC matched it, also developing 300 bhp. The 911 Turbo is listed at 320 Bhp. It would be fair to say they were regarded as a very powerful car indeed at that time. The 911 Carrera 2 and Carrera 4 is listed at 250bhp. Of course they are much faster since they are much lighter - but the BMW was a GT and never a sports car. And a very powerful one.
But cars were generally a fair bit more lightweight back in those days. The 850 wasn't. Even the 560SEC weighs more than 200kg less, with a larger engine.Edited by MarshPhantom on Wednesday 25th January 16:46
J4CKO said:
Amazing how we are all obsessed with being pinned to the seat by acceleration.
Not that amazing. Speed, the feeling of being pinned to the seat and the fear associated with high speed all combine to release the good stuff into our brains. Adrenaline, etc.
We're addicted to that.
E24man said:
The Mercedes 500E was introduced 3 years after the E31 V12, a 32-valve 5 litre V8 and bonkers expensive for its 22bhp more. It might have seemed a high power output but within a year or two Alpina had got 340bhp from the same valves and layout but 400cc's less.
There is no doubting it is a lovely thing but it was already largely eclipsed in its class by the turbo-era 1989 Alpina B10 Bi-Turbo and the ubiquitous Lotus Carlton of 1990.
You seem to keep choosing to ignore the big problem with the 850, it's weight. Rather than the (still rather lame for a 5 litre V12) power output. There is no doubting it is a lovely thing but it was already largely eclipsed in its class by the turbo-era 1989 Alpina B10 Bi-Turbo and the ubiquitous Lotus Carlton of 1990.
The contemporary AMG W124 was pushing out 380bhp from a 5.9 V8.
F1GTRUeno said:
J4CKO said:
Amazing how we are all obsessed with being pinned to the seat by acceleration.
Not that amazing. Speed, the feeling of being pinned to the seat and the fear associated with high speed all combine to release the good stuff into our brains. Adrenaline, etc.
We're addicted to that.
Rollercoasters are designed around 'jerk', and it's why some, perhaps many, like old-school nothing-nothing-changepants-in-500rpm turbo attitude, regardless of how crap the car with this behaviour might really be either side of that narrow, exciting window.
(not me - I like 'linear' - but it's probably a learned behaviour)
Edited by Huff on Wednesday 25th January 21:13
CRA1G said:
derin100 said:
I knew you would regret it!
Did I tell you what the BMW Car Club valued mine at just before Xmas?
If not and if you can make it, do you fancy walking 100 yards up the hill one evening to the Oxon for a couple of pints? I'll tell you just as you take a gulp of your beer and watch you nearly choke when you hear it!
(Craig...if you haven't done it recently you should seriously consider getting an up to date valuation done on yours.
)
Interesting... but i presume you have to be a member (which I'm not) to get a valuation...? Mine's a 98 R reg 840 Sport "Dakar individual" (one of 32) 66K FSH and original standard spec... what is its value today...?Did I tell you what the BMW Car Club valued mine at just before Xmas?
If not and if you can make it, do you fancy walking 100 yards up the hill one evening to the Oxon for a couple of pints? I'll tell you just as you take a gulp of your beer and watch you nearly choke when you hear it!
(Craig...if you haven't done it recently you should seriously consider getting an up to date valuation done on yours.
)MarshPhantom said:
You seem to keep choosing to ignore the big problem with the 850, it's weight. Rather than the (still rather lame for a 5 litre V12) power output.
Oh dear, you seem unable to read because... yesterday E24man said:
I agree the 300bhp might seem underwhelming now and the E31 chassis and body was far too heavy for that power but year by year and like for like with valves it stands in good stead with the Mercedes M120 and M137 V12 engines.
MarshPhantom said:
The contemporary AMG W124 was pushing out 380bhp from a 5.9 V8.
...and it was very rare car with almost single figure numbers made whereas its contemporary, the Alpina B10 Bi-Turbo was pushing out 360bhp from a 3.5litre straight six, was made in the hundreds, and was quicker, perhaps due to it's lighter weight #oh the irony ....Just give up.
The E31 850Ci wasn't quick for its time but that wasn't due to it's mid-1980's developed engine; BMW and Mercedes have always slugged it out and at the pointy end (BMW ///M, Alpina and AMG) they are too close to call. I have said the E31 was too heavy but you are unable to read properly and missed it so you continue to slate the engine despite the fact the car was very popular across the world.
The rest of the BMW and Mercedes engines matched each other shot for shot but again, you won't ever see it, perhaps because you don't read properly.
E31Shrew said:
CRA1G said:
derin100 said:
I knew you would regret it!
Did I tell you what the BMW Car Club valued mine at just before Xmas?
If not and if you can make it, do you fancy walking 100 yards up the hill one evening to the Oxon for a couple of pints? I'll tell you just as you take a gulp of your beer and watch you nearly choke when you hear it!
(Craig...if you haven't done it recently you should seriously consider getting an up to date valuation done on yours. )
Interesting... but i presume you have to be a member (which I'm not) to get a valuation...? Mine's a 98 R reg 840 Sport "Dakar individual" (one of 32) 66K FSH and original standard spec... what is its value today...?Did I tell you what the BMW Car Club valued mine at just before Xmas?
If not and if you can make it, do you fancy walking 100 yards up the hill one evening to the Oxon for a couple of pints? I'll tell you just as you take a gulp of your beer and watch you nearly choke when you hear it!
(Craig...if you haven't done it recently you should seriously consider getting an up to date valuation done on yours.
)
To be honest out of the three Dakars i now have this is the one i can't see me ever parting with...!I think maybe someone read this poor article:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/jalopnik.com/the-8-se...
I was once a passenger in an E31 at an indicated 162mph. Not bad for an underpowered overweight car.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/jalopnik.com/the-8-se...
I was once a passenger in an E31 at an indicated 162mph. Not bad for an underpowered overweight car.
helix402 said:
It's a very accurate article - nail/head. BMW were over ambitious and made the same mistake Jaguar did with the XJS, i.e build a car nobody really wanted.Not as fast as an M5 but more expensive
No faster than a 750i, but more expensive
Less room that either but.......yep.
No convertible version.
No engine options,
Priced at £45'000 it would have done a lot better, but £60'000 was taking the piss. It wasn't worth that much.
I also think the article is spot on; on appearance and perhaps expectation the 8 Series might have looked to be a sports coupe like the 6 Series and CSi/CSL's that came before but however good the engineering and innovation it was just too heavy and sophisticated to be anything but a comfortable GT cruiser.
The same shouldn't be said for the 850CSi and the Alpina B12 though; I would suggest their performance was nothing short of outstanding back then and is still pretty good today...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VpvrRB79koU
The same shouldn't be said for the 850CSi and the Alpina B12 though; I would suggest their performance was nothing short of outstanding back then and is still pretty good today...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VpvrRB79koU
E24man said:
MarshPhantom said:
You seem to keep choosing to ignore the big problem with the 850, it's weight. Rather than the (still rather lame for a 5 litre V12) power output.
Oh dear, you seem unable to read because... yesterday E24man said:
I agree the 300bhp might seem underwhelming now and the E31 chassis and body was far too heavy for that power but year by year and like for like with valves it stands in good stead with the Mercedes M120 and M137 V12 engines.
MarshPhantom said:
The contemporary AMG W124 was pushing out 380bhp from a 5.9 V8.
...and it was very rare car with almost single figure numbers made whereas its contemporary, the Alpina B10 Bi-Turbo was pushing out 360bhp from a 3.5litre straight six, was made in the hundreds, and was quicker, perhaps due to it's lighter weight #oh the irony ....Just give up.
The E31 850Ci wasn't quick for its time but that wasn't due to it's mid-1980's developed engine; BMW and Mercedes have always slugged it out and at the pointy end (BMW ///M, Alpina and AMG) they are too close to call. I have said the E31 was too heavy but you are unable to read properly and missed it so you continue to slate the engine despite the fact the car was very popular across the world.
The rest of the BMW and Mercedes engines matched each other shot for shot but again, you won't ever see it, perhaps because you don't read properly.
helix402 said:
I think maybe someone read this poor article:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/jalopnik.com/the-8-se...
I was once a passenger in an E31 at an indicated 162mph. Not bad for an underpowered overweight car.
And my own car is capable of 150mph +, not bad for a 27 year old 3 litre N/A Sixpot. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/jalopnik.com/the-8-se...
I was once a passenger in an E31 at an indicated 162mph. Not bad for an underpowered overweight car.
Once again, it would help if you could read.
I didn't introduce the 5.0 V8 into the conversation; it was commented on by someone else as a car over 300bhp back in 1990 so I compared the car to it's direct competitors which were the 5 series BMW and the Lotus Carlton.
You introduced the 6.0 V8 and a different car into the conversation and once again I compared the car to the performance of its competitors.
I defended the 5.0 V12 BMW engines performance for its time and showed that the development of the power of the engine was on a par with the Mercedes V12 engine.
You have twice failed to read the thread properly.
Can you read properly?
I didn't introduce the 5.0 V8 into the conversation; it was commented on by someone else as a car over 300bhp back in 1990 so I compared the car to it's direct competitors which were the 5 series BMW and the Lotus Carlton.
You introduced the 6.0 V8 and a different car into the conversation and once again I compared the car to the performance of its competitors.
I defended the 5.0 V12 BMW engines performance for its time and showed that the development of the power of the engine was on a par with the Mercedes V12 engine.
You have twice failed to read the thread properly.
Can you read properly?
Clearly a 'No' then.
The criticisms that can be levelled at the 8 Series are easy to see and concede; too heavy, too complex and expensive to repair, not quite quick enough in either 840i or 850i form and too narrow a performance margin between both cars.
What I don't think you can do is blame the V12 powerplant which fights against the huge weight of the chassis. The engine was fabulous in the E32 and its subsequent development by Alpina and BMW ///M proves how good the design is, even for a basic two valves per cylinder format. The 350, 380, 387, 416 and 430 bhp versions of the engine show how strong it could be but although the conservatism of the initial 300bhp version in retrospection seems inadequate now, as others have commented and shown, it was still a very high figure back in 1987 when it was introduced to the E32 and 1990 for the E31. The engine stood up well against its V12 contemporaries as well, despite lacking volume and valves in most cases unless you call up the ultimate version of BMWs V12, the 6 litre, 48 valve gem built by Paul Rosche for Gordon Murray; that engine is still outstanding imho.
The criticisms that can be levelled at the 8 Series are easy to see and concede; too heavy, too complex and expensive to repair, not quite quick enough in either 840i or 850i form and too narrow a performance margin between both cars.
What I don't think you can do is blame the V12 powerplant which fights against the huge weight of the chassis. The engine was fabulous in the E32 and its subsequent development by Alpina and BMW ///M proves how good the design is, even for a basic two valves per cylinder format. The 350, 380, 387, 416 and 430 bhp versions of the engine show how strong it could be but although the conservatism of the initial 300bhp version in retrospection seems inadequate now, as others have commented and shown, it was still a very high figure back in 1987 when it was introduced to the E32 and 1990 for the E31. The engine stood up well against its V12 contemporaries as well, despite lacking volume and valves in most cases unless you call up the ultimate version of BMWs V12, the 6 litre, 48 valve gem built by Paul Rosche for Gordon Murray; that engine is still outstanding imho.
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