RE: BMW M5: Market Watch
Discussion
Not much love in here for the F10 
I've owned an E39:
A V10 M6 so E60 mechanically:
And just got a 2016 F10:
E39 was a fabulous car, and aside from US F10s the only way to get a manual.
The E6X V10 was a fabulous engine with a great howl when on it, but hard to use the engine, and easy to find yourself without any torque in the wrong mode/settings. WHat ruined this car for me was both SMG, and the silly thimble of a tank.
I'm absolutely loving the F10, its an absolute monster, and the M Dynamic seats are brilliant. I love that 99% of people have no idea that is a 560hp car. (most dyno's seem to suggest they are far more healthy than this too).
I've owned an E39:
A V10 M6 so E60 mechanically:
And just got a 2016 F10:
E39 was a fabulous car, and aside from US F10s the only way to get a manual.
The E6X V10 was a fabulous engine with a great howl when on it, but hard to use the engine, and easy to find yourself without any torque in the wrong mode/settings. WHat ruined this car for me was both SMG, and the silly thimble of a tank.
I'm absolutely loving the F10, its an absolute monster, and the M Dynamic seats are brilliant. I love that 99% of people have no idea that is a 560hp car. (most dyno's seem to suggest they are far more healthy than this too).
Love the E39, best car in the world.
I don't think the F10's will be held in as such high regard as the older M5s, it's still a stupendously quick piece of machinery but seems to lack something for me, i think the engine is just a clinical tool designed to make numbers and be more efficient. Bloody quick but a bit soul less.
I don't think the F10's will be held in as such high regard as the older M5s, it's still a stupendously quick piece of machinery but seems to lack something for me, i think the engine is just a clinical tool designed to make numbers and be more efficient. Bloody quick but a bit soul less.
E39 please. It does big skids.
Years ago derestrictor said:
A jaunt which took place in an environemnt and in a spirit of appropriate legal rectitude...
I was in the X50 support vehicle and Gandalf Kacher was tasked with the sub light duties.
Now, the 996 interior is a work of true sadism; plastics not good enough to have graced my 1981 Fiat 127 and assembly quality that would render the Mirafiori as but the Lexus.
Trundling along is not an option since the associated trim racket is so appalling (I mean the worst it has ever been my misfortune to endure) that deliverance lies only in full and wholesome levelling of the anvil so that induction in association with the accompanying external road and wind roars may combine to drown things out.
So it was that as autobahnic splendour bade us hither, I slowly eased into a firm 160lph cruise.
Here, the 996 Turbo shows it's mettle, the combination of trick electronic supervision allied to supreme mechanicals, clawing into the tundra as all four paws clawed indominatably through the sweepers.
Emboldened by this harnessed solidity (the car, like it's 993 forbear, feeling quite revolting at lesser velocities) I squeezed some more.
Stunningly, the 'squatular nuggetation,' to borrow from the Dunk 76 Alamanac of Favoured EVOisms, was mesmerising and as I cantered into a perfectly acceptable 175lph, began to forget the car's awfulness in departments governed by men in suits and relish the underpinnings of true, engineering genius. It was, to quote the Reevian Keanuc, "f@cking amazing."
Except for one thing: the blue blob of a TIE Fighter, curiously maintaining a tractor beam busting yardage some way ahead.
It's four canons were just about perceivable and the rear valance seemed devoid of bobble. This was a car from the planet Tron. It was a seven year old, 100k M5.
It was also a complete slight to the known hegemony of The Order of The Holy Roman Teuton and I would not have it. [H Grant]Or so I thought...[/H Grant]
The M5 proceeded to pull away. No, I couldn't believe it, either but it did.
As the roads natural camber and corner ebbed and flowed, this was in many ways GT hooning in it's classical, most rarified form. No other traffic, autobahn-a-calling and man unt machine.
It was also very much a topography bereft of sustained, pure straight and so scphincteromics were a factor, it's true but even so, raw grunt - something the Porker could rarely be accused of lacking - was always going to be a telling injector of decisiveness.
Except it wasn't and it didn't. Instead, the sensible family saloon loped harder, faster and stronger. At 180lph, I removed the towel from my fevered brow and threw it into the passenger footwell and informed Mr Sulu to cool down the dilithium. Only David Grohl screaming on the CD remained to keep me safe from the return of s
ttus cabina maximum as I gave up and made my way to our prearranged coffee stop.
Here, as I parked next to the ticking splendour of a French registered 4200GT, the custodian of some exceedingly questionable facial hair awaited, standing proudly next to the conveyance in which he had so brutally served up my undoing.
As we considered the sensation of that which had transpired, Captain Middle Earth proceeded to reveal the full extent of the sublime thraper. Let's just say that the guage which measures lph had been breached...it was still gunning but I'm sure it was his sense of magnanimity which brought things back a tad...
Now, let's get something clear. I'm not for one moment suggesting the old bus is faster than an X50 nor as accelerative (certainly from the off/lower speeds) but what I am rejoicing in, is the blatent reality that once up and rolling and once you've thrown in the sorts of 'real world' curves and esses that define continental routiering of the finest order, the significance of that last percentile of uber grunt evaporates and power differentials suddenly seem a lot tighter as chassis balance, damping, handling feel, poise and solidity all rear their head like some Gorgonic light of automotive judgement.
Even then, the ability of the old master to say 'bks' and simply cog drop so as to 'haul ass' out of the more tightening radii, perhaps in 3rd, had me scrabbling for sufficient lyric wax.
Now I know why every single saloon - if not road car - I drive, feels wanting.
I know of nothing else, no other road car with a repertoire so wide yet honed.
My Lord Daz of The West Country, a fellow who has tweaked the nose of hoonstriction here and there, chuckled the knowing chuckle of the man who knows, for about the eight millionth time, last night. "I think they hit the bullseye with that one, mate," is our perennial conclusion and this experience convinced me that in fact, the arrow head did not just pierce the cork in the board's centre, it may indeed have forced it through.
I do not apologise for this perpetual championing: it is my mission to encourage as many PHers as can feasibly afford to stop mincing around and dive on in.
Trust me, it's free fitting...
I was in the X50 support vehicle and Gandalf Kacher was tasked with the sub light duties.
Now, the 996 interior is a work of true sadism; plastics not good enough to have graced my 1981 Fiat 127 and assembly quality that would render the Mirafiori as but the Lexus.
Trundling along is not an option since the associated trim racket is so appalling (I mean the worst it has ever been my misfortune to endure) that deliverance lies only in full and wholesome levelling of the anvil so that induction in association with the accompanying external road and wind roars may combine to drown things out.
So it was that as autobahnic splendour bade us hither, I slowly eased into a firm 160lph cruise.
Here, the 996 Turbo shows it's mettle, the combination of trick electronic supervision allied to supreme mechanicals, clawing into the tundra as all four paws clawed indominatably through the sweepers.
Emboldened by this harnessed solidity (the car, like it's 993 forbear, feeling quite revolting at lesser velocities) I squeezed some more.
Stunningly, the 'squatular nuggetation,' to borrow from the Dunk 76 Alamanac of Favoured EVOisms, was mesmerising and as I cantered into a perfectly acceptable 175lph, began to forget the car's awfulness in departments governed by men in suits and relish the underpinnings of true, engineering genius. It was, to quote the Reevian Keanuc, "f@cking amazing."
Except for one thing: the blue blob of a TIE Fighter, curiously maintaining a tractor beam busting yardage some way ahead.
It's four canons were just about perceivable and the rear valance seemed devoid of bobble. This was a car from the planet Tron. It was a seven year old, 100k M5.
It was also a complete slight to the known hegemony of The Order of The Holy Roman Teuton and I would not have it. [H Grant]Or so I thought...[/H Grant]
The M5 proceeded to pull away. No, I couldn't believe it, either but it did.
As the roads natural camber and corner ebbed and flowed, this was in many ways GT hooning in it's classical, most rarified form. No other traffic, autobahn-a-calling and man unt machine.
It was also very much a topography bereft of sustained, pure straight and so scphincteromics were a factor, it's true but even so, raw grunt - something the Porker could rarely be accused of lacking - was always going to be a telling injector of decisiveness.
Except it wasn't and it didn't. Instead, the sensible family saloon loped harder, faster and stronger. At 180lph, I removed the towel from my fevered brow and threw it into the passenger footwell and informed Mr Sulu to cool down the dilithium. Only David Grohl screaming on the CD remained to keep me safe from the return of s
ttus cabina maximum as I gave up and made my way to our prearranged coffee stop.Here, as I parked next to the ticking splendour of a French registered 4200GT, the custodian of some exceedingly questionable facial hair awaited, standing proudly next to the conveyance in which he had so brutally served up my undoing.
As we considered the sensation of that which had transpired, Captain Middle Earth proceeded to reveal the full extent of the sublime thraper. Let's just say that the guage which measures lph had been breached...it was still gunning but I'm sure it was his sense of magnanimity which brought things back a tad...
Now, let's get something clear. I'm not for one moment suggesting the old bus is faster than an X50 nor as accelerative (certainly from the off/lower speeds) but what I am rejoicing in, is the blatent reality that once up and rolling and once you've thrown in the sorts of 'real world' curves and esses that define continental routiering of the finest order, the significance of that last percentile of uber grunt evaporates and power differentials suddenly seem a lot tighter as chassis balance, damping, handling feel, poise and solidity all rear their head like some Gorgonic light of automotive judgement.
Even then, the ability of the old master to say 'b
ks' and simply cog drop so as to 'haul ass' out of the more tightening radii, perhaps in 3rd, had me scrabbling for sufficient lyric wax.Now I know why every single saloon - if not road car - I drive, feels wanting.
I know of nothing else, no other road car with a repertoire so wide yet honed.
My Lord Daz of The West Country, a fellow who has tweaked the nose of hoonstriction here and there, chuckled the knowing chuckle of the man who knows, for about the eight millionth time, last night. "I think they hit the bullseye with that one, mate," is our perennial conclusion and this experience convinced me that in fact, the arrow head did not just pierce the cork in the board's centre, it may indeed have forced it through.
I do not apologise for this perpetual championing: it is my mission to encourage as many PHers as can feasibly afford to stop mincing around and dive on in.
Trust me, it's free fitting...
sutts said:
Lovely car turbobungle, and I enjoyed your YT video. Presuming you live somewhere near where the recording started, then we live about 15 mins apart. Let me know if you ever want to meet up for a coffee and an E28 M5 convoy drive out?!
No probs. I assumed you were local-ish, pretty sure I saw your car at Leeds Castle event a couple of years ago? Need to get mine looked at though, brakes keep sticking on at the moment, I'm wondering if there's a link from brake pedal on the right of the car to master cylinder on the left of the car that may have an issue. Anyone you trust locally to work on yours? rotta said:
that red e28 is beautiful!!
for me though.. has to be the 3.8 E34.. but then i am biased..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHfo3iIRpzc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NgG-hkp9TM
Pride and Joy it will never leave me!!
Rotta
Lovely! Do you still take it on track with values on the rise? Fair play if you do! for me though.. has to be the 3.8 E34.. but then i am biased..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHfo3iIRpzc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NgG-hkp9TM
Pride and Joy it will never leave me!!
Rotta
Edited by rotta on Monday 30th January 21:33
Edited by rotta on Monday 30th January 21:56
theboss said:
edo said:
Not much love in here for the F10
Only if you exclude those who actually drive one!Love that quote from derestrictor above.
Edited by theboss on Tuesday 31st January 09:33
1. Any performance v8 car that has engine sound playing from hifi, out of principal, is on shaky ground IMO. Function over form used to lead the way.
2. It is what I would expect from a fast 7 series - BIG, fast and very Comfortable - not exciting.
3. M5 used to be a unique 4 door driving proposition, finely enhanced to make it driver orientated. Now Jaguar, Audi and Mercedes make very similar offerings - fast, automatic gearboxes and all weigh around on 2Mt. But in the UK 400hp plus really needs 4wd to be exploiting with our weather.
4. M5 used to be the best 4 door BMW make, now the M6 Gran Coupe is both better looking and more sporty, so buying an M5 would feel a compromise even if wanting a BMW M5.
5. Alpina D5 Touring - for me is the best F10 "M5". Does comfort and speed like M5, looks better more practical and has the rare handbuilt touches, and doesnt play engine noises through the hifi (I dont think)!!
Edited by British Beef on Tuesday 31st January 10:36
andy43 said:
E39 please. It does big skids.
They all do big skids (though it really needs to be wet for the E28!) - my mate has an E39 though and that is very good at big skids, I took it on track at Bedford and was sideways at 70-80mph and it lapped it up even with 165,000 miles under its wheels! Great cars. 
British Beef said:
theboss said:
edo said:
Not much love in here for the F10
Only if you exclude those who actually drive one!Love that quote from derestrictor above.
Edited by theboss on Tuesday 31st January 09:33
1. Any performance v8 car that has engine sound playing from hifi, out of principal, is on shaky ground IMO. Function over form used to lead the way.
2. It is what I would expect from a fast 7 series - BIG, fast and very Comfortable - not exciting.
3. M5 used to be a unique 4 door driving proposition, finely enhanced to make it driver orientated. Now Jaguar, Audi and Mercedes make very similar offerings - fast, automatic gearboxes and all weigh around on 2Mt. But in the UK 400hp plus really needs 4wd to be exploiting with our weather.
4. M5 used to be the best 4 door BMW make, now the M6 Gran Coupe is both better looking and more sporty, so buying an M5 would feel a compromise even if wanting a BMW M5.
5. Alpina D5 Touring - for me is the best F10 "M5". Does comfort and speed like M5, looks better more practical and has the rare handbuilt touches, and doesnt play engine noises through the hifi (I dont think)!!
Edited by British Beef on Tuesday 31st January 10:36
1) the synthetic sound thing is a moot point for me - I don't like the principle any more than you do - but in practice its not discernible to me and makes no difference to my perception of the car. I think BMW's engineers were trying to be a bit too clever for their own good with this. As far as I can tell they weren't actually trying to change the sound of the car, but rather a case of wanting to deliver a greater sense of audible feedback to the driver because of the high degree of sound insulation. The important thing for me is that if you open the sunroof (standard kit) or drop the windows the sound level goes up and is not unpleasant. Exhaust modifications are an option as they always were - you could say this shouldn't be necessary, yet exhaust upgrades seem to be very popular with the already fantastic sounding E60 M5 owners if youtube is anything to go by.
2) I agree and BMW may have gone too far in 'softening' it vs predecessors - but for some owners like myself this makes the car a genuine comfortable high mileage / daily drive proposition. Personally I think the balance is about right but then I spend more time in mine than most owners do, and I also have a spinal issue to consider.
3) Mine runs DMS stage 2 at over 700bhp and I don't have a problem using it in all weather conditions. I am running winters this year vs MPSS last year and the difference in available traction is significant. Obviously as with any >400bhp 2WD car you to have to account for the conditions but I like the fact that you are required to engage your brain at all times when regulating throttle inputs.
4) I agree about the M6GC and I'd love one - however the M5 represented a better deal when standard new cars were available for under £60k and 0% - and I also regularly carry four passengers which wouldn't work with the 6. I also like the fact the M5 doesn't really stand out in a car park.
5) I've always had a thing for Alpinas and if you'd said B5 touring I might have agreed to some extent
but the diesel just can't really excite me in any way. That is not a criticism - I have driven plenty of 30d/35d drivetrains mapped to D5 levels, admire them for their capabilities and certainly wouldn't complain about doing my motorway mileage in a 640d/740d - and I see the F10 as offering a best of both worlds really, with the lazier power delivery and waft factor of the Alpinas but with a much harder edge when it's dialled up to 10. I've driven across Germany a few times in my M5 - I have no doubt both the D5/B5 would do it in a very similar manner but I'm not so sure that I'd be as equally compelled to drive several hundred miles out of my way to throw a few ring laps in on the return journey. As above generous discounts also mean that the M5 would be cheaper to buy than either, certainly in any like-for-like spec level.Edited by theboss on Tuesday 31st January 11:24
turbobungle said:
They all do big skids (though it really needs to be wet for the E28!) - my mate has an E39 though and that is very good at big skids, I took it on track at Bedford and was sideways at 70-80mph and it lapped it up even with 165,000 miles under its wheels! Great cars.
unlikely anyone will be able to answer but does anyone know whether those images are copyrighted?
British Beef said:
Ive always been an M5 fan boy, but I fall in that category having never driven the F10 (been a passenger though), and having no desire to own one, this is why->
1. Any performance v8 car that has engine sound playing from hifi, out of principal, is on shaky ground IMO. Function over form used to lead the way.
2. It is what I would expect from a fast 7 series - BIG, fast and very Comfortable - not exciting.
3. M5 used to be a unique 4 door driving proposition, finely enhanced to make it driver orientated. Now Jaguar, Audi and Mercedes make very similar offerings - fast, automatic gearboxes and all weigh around on 2Mt. But in the UK 400hp plus really needs 4wd to be exploiting with our weather.
4. M5 used to be the best 4 door BMW make, now the M6 Gran Coupe is both better looking and more sporty, so buying an M5 would feel a compromise even if wanting a BMW M5.
5. Alpina D5 Touring - for me is the best F10 "M5". Does comfort and speed like M5, looks better more practical and has the rare handbuilt touches, and doesnt play engine noises through the hifi (I dont think)!!
The F10's problem is the Audi RS6 of the same era. Just a lot more desirable, and probably better. Not a problem the M5 ever had before that turbocharged generation.1. Any performance v8 car that has engine sound playing from hifi, out of principal, is on shaky ground IMO. Function over form used to lead the way.
2. It is what I would expect from a fast 7 series - BIG, fast and very Comfortable - not exciting.
3. M5 used to be a unique 4 door driving proposition, finely enhanced to make it driver orientated. Now Jaguar, Audi and Mercedes make very similar offerings - fast, automatic gearboxes and all weigh around on 2Mt. But in the UK 400hp plus really needs 4wd to be exploiting with our weather.
4. M5 used to be the best 4 door BMW make, now the M6 Gran Coupe is both better looking and more sporty, so buying an M5 would feel a compromise even if wanting a BMW M5.
5. Alpina D5 Touring - for me is the best F10 "M5". Does comfort and speed like M5, looks better more practical and has the rare handbuilt touches, and doesnt play engine noises through the hifi (I dont think)!!
Edited by British Beef on Tuesday 31st January 10:36
turbobungle said:
Lovely! Do you still take it on track with values on the rise? Fair play if you do!
Thank you Turbobungle, Not been to the ring for quite a few years now shes still under 100k so its now pampered kept in a heated lockup and rolled out for shows ect (when its dry!!)Edited by rotta on Tuesday 31st January 13:06
MrTouring said:
JohnGoodridge said:
MrTouring said:
ortontom said:
E60 some say are you kidding, that engine has very little torque low down barely gets the car off the line, and then that gearbox yuk. I remember owning one for 3 months and my friends all drove it and we all agreed it was not right at all
Sometime if I'm starting on an incline my wife has to get out and push....Seriously though you should have kept it longer! E60/61 is not a car you can just get in and drive. Took me 6mnths to a year to really learn how to drive it smoothly and properly, something I consider to be part of the charm of owning something special. I don't bother letting people drive it one off as it invariably disappoints them as they can't drive it well.
It's a car that gets under your skin and makes itself irreplaceable.
I had a remapped 535d before and I wouldn't say I miss it or it's huge amount of torque!
Oh, and did I mention the noise........
We're just never going to see an engine like that again in anything other than a supercar. Saving pennies as we speak.
Unless your 35d is fully loaded you'll have a fair few more toys on an e61 M as bmw UK loaded them up pretty much on entry. Only about 4 options left for owners to tick.
Then theirs that noise again........
Be ready for 11mpg around town and 23 max on a long run. Seriously.
I've heard the legendary tales of the S85's thirst. Fortunately I don't do many miles, and would retain another option if that changed.
My e61 35d is mid-spec. Some things I miss, like folding mirrors. Other things I'm not so bothered about like power tailgate and load cover. I am interested to feel the difference in steering you speak of, and springs, as I've found the air rear/passive front in the e61 can feel a bit mismatched in certain situations. But I'm an engine kind of guy, so the thought of hearing and feeling that V10 climb from growl to feral - in a family wagon! is the big prize.
The E39 seems to be a sweet spot between modernity, safety, increasing scarcity (at least the good ones) and old school analogue performance, with its three pedals and a stick. Yet it's still not too antiquated to feel hopelessly outdated amongst all the tech-laden barges of today. Also, I've got one and am biased.
I still massively, massively covet an E28 M5 though. Turbobungle, yours in particular.
I still massively, massively covet an E28 M5 though. Turbobungle, yours in particular.
turbobungle said:
No probs. I assumed you were local-ish, pretty sure I saw your car at Leeds Castle event a couple of years ago? Need to get mine looked at though, brakes keep sticking on at the moment, I'm wondering if there's a link from brake pedal on the right of the car to master cylinder on the left of the car that may have an issue. Anyone you trust locally to work on yours?
Yep I'm in Maidstone but know the roads around your way pretty well too. Mine goes to H & C Motors in Maidstone for smaller jobs - they're a BMW specialist with a great reputation and very friendly and fair with pricing. They're BMW techs from the 80's and 90's so know the cars well and in fact have their own E34 M5. So a safe pair of hands really.bedonde said:
The E39 seems to be a sweet spot between modernity, safety, increasing scarcity (at least the good ones) and old school analogue performance, with its three pedals and a stick. Yet it's still not too antiquated to feel hopelessly outdated amongst all the tech-laden barges of today. Also, I've got one and am biased.
I still massively, massively covet an E28 M5 though. Turbobungle, yours in particular.
What you need is an ESS supercharger kit, bolt on to upgrade to 650Bhp!I still massively, massively covet an E28 M5 though. Turbobungle, yours in particular.
[
"The F10's problem is the Audi RS6 of the same era. Just a lot more desirable, and probably better. Not a problem the M5 ever had before that turbocharged generation."
Do you mean the rs6 is better ?
Never even considered one - its more than just power and acceleration than makes an M special .
I had an rs2 and it was a pretty blunt tool compared to an e34 m5 . I imagine an rs6 to be similar .
M cars have always had competitors - mercs e55 etc or rs audi's
[/quote]
"The F10's problem is the Audi RS6 of the same era. Just a lot more desirable, and probably better. Not a problem the M5 ever had before that turbocharged generation."
Do you mean the rs6 is better ?
Never even considered one - its more than just power and acceleration than makes an M special .
I had an rs2 and it was a pretty blunt tool compared to an e34 m5 . I imagine an rs6 to be similar .
M cars have always had competitors - mercs e55 etc or rs audi's
[/quote]
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