Another unexplained acceleration

[anonymous-user]

saaby93 said:

SonicShadow said:

Mechanical or electrical failures leave evidence that the failure occurred. Where is the evidence in this case?

I know you like to play devils advocate, but the only reason this case is ongoing is because the daft old cow has enough money to keep paying the lawyers. It's very obvious what actually happened - she pressed the accelerator and didn't press the brake like she claims she did.

I read it that she did say she pressed the accelerator but the car 'took off' for some reason peeps are getting hung up on the brakes instead, but never mind

Ok, lets assume she did what she says then either:


1) the person she hit and killed was immediately (<5m or a car length) in front of her vehicle, in which case, the application of "any" accelerator is death by careless driving (hint, if there's someone in front of your car, you don't start driving towards them!!)

2) the person she hit and killed was some distance away (lets say 15m or 3 car lengths), in which case, there would be time for a competent driver to get off the accelerator, and onto the brakes before hitting them. Assuming the car was stationary, and went unexpectedly to WOT, and a cashcow isn't exactly a top fuel dragster is it, so lets take a realistic 0.75g from rest, so by S=UT+0.5AT^2, it would take 2.1 seconds to cover that distance. If as a driver, you can't get the brake pedal pressed in that time, then yup, it's death by careless driving again.

[Jimmy Recard]

saaby93 said:

It's not a bad theory but its not what she says
She says that she was trying to move forward, pressed the accelerator lightly and the car took off
Its only after that she tried the brakes
It's a subtle but important difference

She's not saying that when she pressed hard on the brakes the car took off - in which case this thread wouldnt exist

But we know that what she says is different to what happened, therefore we try to theorise what she actually did. If she had done what she says she did, the unfortunate Mrs Dean wouldn't have been injured, let alone killed.

[tin duck dave]

saaby93 said:

It's not a bad theory but its not what she says
She says that she was trying to move forward, pressed the accelerator lightly and the car took off
Its only after that she tried the brakes
It's a subtle but important difference

She's not saying that when she pressed hard on the brakes the car took off - in which case this thread wouldnt exist

Nobody is saying the brake application started this , the point is that when she claimed to have braked she was still pressing the accelerator

[saaby93]

tin duck dave said:

saaby93 said:

I read it that she did say she pressed the accelerator but the car 'took off' for some reason peeps are getting hung up on the brakes instead, but never mind

People keep mentioning brakes because she said she was braking after the car took off yet she clearly didn't as brakes would overcome engine. It just seems you want to ignore this as it doesn't suit your argument.

Its not my argument its her argument
She said she tried pressing the brakes but they didnt work very well
Wasn't that too late though.
If you're manouevering slowly youre not too bothered about people within a few metres - think supermarket car park
But if the car takes off, by the time youve used up your few seconds of thinking time plus some more because you cant believe whats happening, you're onto them - how long do you have to brake?
If thats what happened

How do autonomous cars work in these circumstances? Are they allowed to move at all if there are pedestrians around?

[eldar]

saaby93 said:

I read it that she did say she pressed the accelerator but the car 'took off' for some reason peeps are getting hung up on the brakes instead, but never mind

She pressed the brakes gently. The car continues to accelerator. The brakes were the safety over ride here. Had she pressed the brake pedal firmly. she would have stopped safely. The braking or lack of is the most important aspect of this case.

She is suggesting either operator error - improper operation of brakes and/or accelerator or failure of both throttle and brakes leaving no evidence of either.

Regardless of age or gender one scenario is plausible, one is not. The driver is in denial.

[tin duck dave]

saaby93 said:

Its not my argument its her argument
She said she tried pressing the brakes but they didnt work very well
Wasn't that too late though.
If you're manouevering slowly youre not too bothered about people within a few metres - think supermarket car park
But if the car takes off, by the time youve used up your few seconds of thinking time plus some more because you cant believe whats happening, you're onto them - how long do you have to brake?
If thats what happened

How do autonomous cars work in these circumstances? Are they allowed to move at all if there are pedestrians around?

I have to assume the 93 in your user name is age related if you believe reaction time is a few seconds.

[Flooble]

Just as a minor point (not commenting on "brake/accelerator" confusion) but someone mentioned that most modern cars have Emergency Brake Assist (EBA) and thus go to full braking power if you rapidly apply the brake.

However, can an older person move their foot quickly enough to trigger the EBA to activate. The whole point of EBA is that it doesn't trigger if you take a bit longer in applying the brake.

[PoleDriver]

More likely she is diabetic and has little sense of touch in her right foot so, what she thinks is a "light touch" on the accelerator was, in fact, a much harder press!

[shambolic]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/am...
Common theme also blamed his car and didn't say sorry.
Found guilty though.

Edited by shambolic on Saturday 4th February 15:08

[Jazzy Jag]

I've seen a customer of mine do this.

Guys was deaf as a post and walked with sticks.
Got in his Saab 9000 and the first thing we heard was the car bouncing off the rev limiter, which drew our attention.
The guy then quite calmly puts his seat belt on and drops it into drive.

The result was not pretty .
He swore blind that the car took off on its own but he was clearly oblivious to the fact that it was revving it's tats off for several seconds before he selected D.

Edited by Jazzy Jag on Saturday 4th February 19:57

[Flooble]

My (70+ at the time of the anecdote, 80-ish now) neighbour still does this every time he takes the car out. Engine starts, revs to 4000+, bounces backwards as he prods the clutch in and out to control the speed.

I lent him one of my old cars a few years ago when something-or-other had dropped of his the day before they went on holiday.

It survived but needed a new clutch a couple of thousand miles later and expired a little after that. Might have been co-incidence ... or maybe not.

[saaby93]

PoleDriver said:

More likely she is diabetic and has little sense of touch in her right foot so, what she thinks is a "light touch" on the accelerator was, in fact, a much harder press!

That may be so too - has it been reported?

Flooble said:

Just as a minor point (not commenting on "brake/accelerator" confusion) but someone mentioned that most modern cars have Emergency Brake Assist (EBA) and thus go to full braking power if you rapidly apply the brake.

However, can an older person move their foot quickly enough to trigger the EBA to activate. The whole point of EBA is that it doesn't trigger if you take a bit longer in applying the brake.

If we're talking about the braking half, good point - does it work at slow speeds too?
What did eventually stop the car - was it other cars buildings, or did come to a stop under own means?

Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 4th February 15:25

[Fastpedeller]

What if the car was in too high a gear for the speed, and the idle speed control valve kicked in?

[BrownBottle]

Silent1 said:

mk2driver said:

Brakes won't always stop a car with engine at full torque, that depends on the vehicle speed. Speed is important due to the fact that all brakes do is convert kinetic energy into heat.

If you are going at a high vehicle speed with engine demanding full torque continuously you might end up in a situation where the brakes fail through overheating before the vehicle stops.

This depends on vehicle speed, mass and the brake system as well as the engines torque capability of course.

In this case it certainly would drop the car given the relatively low vehicle speed and my opinion would be she simply hit the wrong pedal

The brakes on any car in current use will absolutely stop that car even with the engine at full throttle, the stopping distance usually increases by 10 metres over a normal emergency stop. If there was a car in the road that couldn't stop then it's brakes would be so woefully inadequate in normal usage as to be dangerous.

I'm not so sure, I know they're pretty old now but I remember late 90's Ford Explorers having a cruise control fault that kept the throttle applied. When it happened at speed the owners reported that it overpowered the brakes fairly quickly, I remember at least one case where the driver was killed.

[FurtiveFreddy]

Well I might be opening myself up to being called ageist here, but what I've noticed, having to deal more and more with elderly relatives who need help to keep them living independently, is that they really don't like to admit they might be wrong about something.

I think it's something to do with them believing that those around them will think they're 'losing their marbles' or developing dementia if they make mistakes or forget something. That's not too serious if it's just items on a shopping list, but when they won't admit they're not fit to drive any more, it becomes a very serious problem.

Luckily, the relatives I deal haven't driven for many years but I know there are plenty of families around who find this subject very difficult to deal with.

[Jimmy Recard]

Another problem for me is that it's very unfair on the family of the victim, dragging it out like this.

[eldar]

BrownBottle said:

I'm not so sure, I know they're pretty old now but I remember late 90's Ford Explorers having a cruise control fault that kept the throttle applied. When it happened at speed the owners reported that it overpowered the brakes fairly quickly, I remember at least one case where the driver was killed.

I suspect that was not accurate any car since 1960 will have brakes that outperform the engine. This recent thread discusses it (and jamming cruise control).

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=163...

[SonicShadow]

Max_Torque said:

saaby93 said:

SonicShadow said:

Mechanical or electrical failures leave evidence that the failure occurred. Where is the evidence in this case?

I know you like to play devils advocate, but the only reason this case is ongoing is because the daft old cow has enough money to keep paying the lawyers. It's very obvious what actually happened - she pressed the accelerator and didn't press the brake like she claims she did.

I read it that she did say she pressed the accelerator but the car 'took off' for some reason peeps are getting hung up on the brakes instead, but never mind

Ok, lets assume she did what she says then either:


1) the person she hit and killed was immediately (<5m or a car length) in front of her vehicle, in which case, the application of "any" accelerator is death by careless driving (hint, if there's someone in front of your car, you don't start driving towards them!!)

2) the person she hit and killed was some distance away (lets say 15m or 3 car lengths), in which case, there would be time for a competent driver to get off the accelerator, and onto the brakes before hitting them. Assuming the car was stationary, and went unexpectedly to WOT, and a cashcow isn't exactly a top fuel dragster is it, so lets take a realistic 0.75g from rest, so by S=UT+0.5AT^2, it would take 2.1 seconds to cover that distance. If as a driver, you can't get the brake pedal pressed in that time, then yup, it's death by careless driving again.

Unsurprisingly, saaby93 ignored this post.

[saaby93]

SonicShadow said:

Max_Torque said:

saaby93 said:

SonicShadow said:

Mechanical or electrical failures leave evidence that the failure occurred. Where is the evidence in this case?

I know you like to play devils advocate, but the only reason this case is ongoing is because the daft old cow has enough money to keep paying the lawyers. It's very obvious what actually happened - she pressed the accelerator and didn't press the brake like she claims she did.

I read it that she did say she pressed the accelerator but the car 'took off' for some reason peeps are getting hung up on the brakes instead, but never mind

Ok, lets assume she did what she says then either:


1) the person she hit and killed was immediately (<5m or a car length) in front of her vehicle, in which case, the application of "any" accelerator is death by careless driving (hint, if there's someone in front of your car, you don't start driving towards them!!)

2) the person she hit and killed was some distance away (lets say 15m or 3 car lengths), in which case, there would be time for a competent driver to get off the accelerator, and onto the brakes before hitting them. Assuming the car was stationary, and went unexpectedly to WOT, and a cashcow isn't exactly a top fuel dragster is it, so lets take a realistic 0.75g from rest, so by S=UT+0.5AT^2, it would take 2.1 seconds to cover that distance. If as a driver, you can't get the brake pedal pressed in that time, then yup, it's death by careless driving again.

Unsurprisingly, saaby93 ignored this post.

Not ignored but why's it unsurprising?
We know the poor lady who died was within 5 metres and it was answered with the supermarket scenario, When you move off with pedestrians around you don't think the car is going to 'take off' and by the time you've realised and clocked what's going on it'll be too late
Did that need explaining

Cant we keep with why it 'took off' rather than dire things that happened as a consequence

Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 4th February 20:51

[The Wookie]

SonicShadow said:

Unsurprisingly, saaby93 ignored this post.

Perhaps off to try and push a door marked pull!