Why the UK obsession with "German" cars?

[white_goodman]

OldGermanHeaps said:

The problem i'm having is finding a used non german/flash car with all the same trimmings at a reasonable price, looking for a big estate with a bit of poke and apart from a mondeo tit x which are rare in scotlland and holding their money far too well or a jag xf which in estate form is megabucks the german options tend to offer better value for money with regard to spec. Because top spec used skoda superbs don't come on the used market as often they tend to cost more than an equivelant spec bmw/audi/merc. To me this is a problem being a self employed tradesman as the last time i had a german car and customers seen it the difference in price haggling on jobs was very noticable, a couple actually came out and said you are running an x5, you must be making a lot of profit so you can cut me a better deal, missing out the fact it was a 52 plate with 100k on it. I went back to renault and things returned to normal. I wish renault still brought in the laguna the last ones of those were fantastic.

Have you tried a Mazda 6?

[Swampy1982]

RobM77 said:

neil1jnr said:

Swampy1982 said:

I've got a MY2017 A4 base spec, only option being I changed the wheels (different design £295) and adaptive headlights (£300)

It has everything I need, nothing more, nothing less. Digital radio, sat nav (through my phone) wireless phone charging, bluetooth phone, bluetooth music, whatsapp support, spottify support, xenon headlights, auto dimming mirror etc

I could have had a top spec mondeo vignale, but the only real spec difference that I would have meaningfully used was the heated seats.

Its a company car

Because of the CO2, the Mondeo would have cost me about £80 more net

The Audi costs me £25 more than the insignia it replaces.

The Audi is clearly the logical, financial choice.

The question is why wouldn't you get the German car in this scenario? I would bet a lot of the 3 series, A4 and C classes on the road are company cars.

The Insignia is cheaper and the Mondeo is more expensive so obviously the A4 is perfect... Of course it is for you, why not just say you prefer the Audi rather than try and justify it and make out it is the most logical choice? Strange.

Why can't you just believe what he says instead of making up reasons for him? He's talking complete sense. If you look at the prices of the A4, Mondeo, 3 series etc, they're all pretty much the same price, especially on lease as a company car etc. Most people presumably prefer the A4 to the Mondeo. I've driven both on a number of occasions as hire and courtesy cars and whilst I don't like either of them, I can easily see why people prefer the A4. People who are saying 'the Mondeo is better' are just being snobs/bigots/racists etc who are anti-German in my opinion - the A4 is clearly the superior car in a lot of people's minds, and it should be fairly easy to see why if you have an open mind.

The A4 in my scenario was the best car at a reasonable price, decided on the requirment to provide for my family. Please note, I downgraded banding to get the A4 and could have had a full range of cars from Jaguar through to full spec Mercs, but decided based on best value for money over a 4 year period with CO2 bands changing over that period.

Do I think the A4 is viewed as "better" by most non-car people, yeah for sure, was this the deciding factor - absolutely not. Do I personally prefer it... yes now I compare it to my mates Mondeo.

(I ruled out the insignia as I had already suffered one for 3 years of troublesome motoring leaving me stranded with a young son and grumpy misses.)

[bodhi]

I bought my curreent German car as there wasn't anything else out ther ethat fitted the bill - i.e a small RWD Sports Saloon/Coupe with more than 4 cylinders, 4 seats a manual box, two and ahalf year later and the only issues I've had with it were the "upgraded" headlights the previous owner fitted, other than that it's just needed routine maintenance and some tyres.

Eeverything inside is still attached and rattle free, it's ergonomically spot on (apart form the auto wipers, they don't work and you can't see the warning light behind the steering wheel) and great to drive - if I had the choice again I wouldn;t do anything differently.

[Swampy1982]

bodhi said:

I bought my curreent German car as there wasn't anything else out ther ethat fitted the bill - i.e a small RWD Sports Saloon/Coupe with more than 4 cylinders, 4 seats a manual box, two and ahalf year later and the only issues I've had with it were the "upgraded" headlights the previous owner fitted, other than that it's just needed routine maintenance and some tyres.

Eeverything inside is still attached and rattle free, it's ergonomically spot on (apart form the auto wipers, they don't work and you can't see the warning light behind the steering wheel) and great to drive - if I had the choice again I wouldn;t do anything differently.

in keeping with some of the thread sentiment -

WHY CANT YOU JUST ADMIT YOU LIKE GERMAN CARS AND WHY ARE YOU JUSTIFYING WITH LOGIC YOU GERMANIC PREFERENCES!!?!?!!!

(I jest...)

[SuperchargedVR6]

white_goodman said:

Growing up in the 80s/90s, UK roads were dominated by Fords, Vauxhalls and Rovers and then I remember Citroen/Peugeot/Renault becoming very popular in the late 90s. I guess the German invasion began with the introduction of the "cheaper" models (A3/A-Class/1-Series)?

I don't tend to spend over 20k on cars but if I did, I would certainly be looking at stuff like Audi RS3s/TT RSs, BMW M3s/M4s, AMG Mercs and Porsche Boxsters/Caymans.

But that doesn't explain all the low spec and modestly-engined Audis/BMWs/Mercedes out there. I haven't bought a brand new car for ages, so maybe I am missing something but why would I want a less reliable, less well-specced, less powerful and less well-warranted car and receive crap service for the privilige when all the recent Fords, Mazda, Kias and Hyundais that I have driven have been so good.

The German invasion began far earlier than those models. Where were you in the 80s if you didn't see an Audi 80, or a 100 Avant? Or a 325i? Those examples actually were CONSIDERABLY better made than Ford, Vauxhall and BL crap.

So on the one hand you slate the Germans, and on the other you'd buy their offerings? They're just good at marketing, that's all. The fact so many people fall for it is not the fault of the car maker(s).

[anonymous-user]

Great to see that in the absence of the weekly "lease/pcp/financing is for my mugs" that the PH powerfully built director/budding Warrren Buffett/I'm considerably cleverer than everybody else" inverse snobbery brigade have an outlet for their self affirmation needs

[Richard-390a0]

RSK21 said:

Great to see that in the absence of the weekly "lease/pcp/financing is for my mugs" that the PH powerfully built director/budding Warrren Buffett/I'm considerably cleverer than everybody else" inverse snobbery brigade have an outlet for their self affirmation needs

[bigdom]

bodhi said:

I bought my current German car as there wasn't anything else out there that fitted the bill

Same here. I wanted a fast large estate for cross continental trips, capable of towing 2 ton for track days, 6 cylinder minimum and rear wheel drive. Choice in the market outside of Germany is pretty non - existent.

I don't want an SUV, and I'm too young to own a Merc!! Jaguar sportbrake, didn't like it or the engine choices, too small inside, dated interior. I'll have another look when the new one comes out.

I would happily have a Mondeo if Ford put a proper engine in one, and sent the power to the correct wheels!

[white_goodman]

An interesting read and some good points made but I'm not sure if the original question has really been answered. I have owned several German cars, a BMW, a Mercedes and several VWs and enjoyed most of them, so really no axe to grind. I have also owned Vauxhall, Peugeot, Mazda, Fiat, Subaru, Chrysler, Jeep, Toyota, Honda, Dodge, MINI. Toyota and Mazda were most reliable (nothing required other than routine servicing and no rattles) and other than the Jeep, which was a complete disaster, the least reliable were the mk4 Golf and the Corrado. OK, the "perceived" quality of the Golf was nicer than the Mazda/Toyota (door shut with a solid thunk and higher grade interior plastics) but actual reliability was dire. My Fiat, Vauxhall and Subaru were all far more reliable and to be fair the BMW (E30) was pretty good too. The Mercedes was mechanically tough but badly rusting and lots of bits of trim falling off.

OK, the sample size may not be statistically significant but it begs the question what new cars are actually the most reliable and better built?

I don't know if you can really bring country of manufacture into it. Sure, Nissan, Toyota and Honda build cars in the UK but to Japanese standards. Do their UK built cars feel any less Japanese than their Japanese built ones? "German" cars are built all over the world but I wouldn't really call an American-built BMW or Mercedes American. Likewise, my own MINI Cooper was built in the UK and I would like to think of it as British but it does have a very BMW-like feel to it. Is that a good or a bad thing? I don't know. It has a few rattles but in general feels fairly solid.

Surely GM continued to market their vehicles as Vauxhalls uniquely in the UK to maintain that perceived Britishness? Are Ford and Vauxhalls German? They may be engineered in Europe but their parent companies are American surely and I wouldn't say that they "feel" that Germanic. Get out of a European Vauxhall and into an American Chevrolet and they have a similar kind of feel. The last two cars that I hired were a mk7 Golf S and a Focus Zetec-S. The Golf had a "nicer" quality interior and had that solid, Germanic feel, although the passenger door had a poor fit and generated quite a lot of wind noise. The Focus interior plastics did not feel of such high quality and I still find this a downside in most Fords and it didn't feel Germanic but actual build quality was pretty solid with no issues and despite being a fan of Golfs in the past, the Focus was a nicer place to be and a more enjoyable drive.

I also fully understand that the high-end German cars (Porsches, RS Audis, BMW Ms, AMG Mercs) are very nice pieces of kit with few rivals and even a high-spec BMW/Mercedes offers RWD and more powerful petrol and diesel engines which similarly-sized rivals don't offer and I also get the leasing argument for company car drivers but is a C200 Blutec (the one with the Renault diesel engine) really a nicer car than a fully-loaded Mazda 6 diesel for a private cash/finance buyer? I'm not so sure.

The latest Mazda 3/6 have very pleasant, nice quality interiors, as do the Kia Sportage and Sorento for that matter. You also get everything as standard and the options lists are usually negligible. You get better reliability, lower parts prices, longer warranty and usually better service from the dealership too. So unlike Australia/North America, why would we rather buy an A-Class/C-Class or Audi Q3/Q5? People in these markets still like luxury and spend a lot of money on their cars but they seem to value the tangibles like reliability, running costs, dealer service and VFM over the intangibles like having the right badge/image!

[Monkeylegend]

I bought my first Mercedes in 2002 as a Chauffeur vehicle, and the reason for choosing it then was customer perception. They perceived the Mercedes in particular as a prestige car, on a different level quality and comfort wise to the run of the mill Ford/Vauxhall.

A lot of them couldn't afford them and those that could would never be seen in a Ford/Vauxhall offering.

Many would ask what type of car I had and if I had offered Audi, BMW or Mercedes they would have chosen the Merc everytime to be chauffeured in.

In addition to that they were very reliable and I didn't ever suffer the rust issues of some.

Moving forward in time, most other manufacturers have caught up with Mercedes and the other German cars to the point where in my opinion they offer very little over the competition other than the 3 pointed star, and even that now is on the extras list.

Mercedes in particular are living on their past reputation and personally I like non of their current offerings.

So the answer I think is now a misguided perception of quality and premium feel from times past.

[RobM77]

bodhi said:

I bought my curreent German car as there wasn't anything else out ther ethat fitted the bill - i.e a small RWD Sports Saloon/Coupe with more than 4 cylinders, 4 seats a manual box, two and ahalf year later and the only issues I've had with it were the "upgraded" headlights the previous owner fitted, other than that it's just needed routine maintenance and some tyres.

Eeverything inside is still attached and rattle free, it's ergonomically spot on (apart form the auto wipers, they don't work and you can't see the warning light behind the steering wheel) and great to drive - if I had the choice again I wouldn;t do anything differently.

I'm much the same, but I doubt we're typical. I wanted a rear drive saloon with a low centre of gravity, a manual gearbox, super quiet at speed and decent handling. There are loads of other little things I wanted too, like the integrated HDD storing MP3s, Bluetooth, comfortable seats, good towing ability, a low roofline for easy roof bar loading etc. A 3 series seemed like the only choice, unless I could find a manual C Class. The thing is, my Dad has the same car as me, but for completely different reasons. A few of my friends own the same car as us, but again, for different reasons. I haven't even mentioned a genuine 70mpg+ yet or the fact I rack up 30-35k a year without issues. The key thing I'm trying to say is that German cars, in this case the BMW 3 series, do so many things so well that there's very little competition. Individual cars do other things well (for example Toyota and Honda probably build more reliable cars, and Alfa build more charismatic cars), but I don't know of anyone else that does the whole package quite as well as the big German makers. The downside used to be cost, but now a 3 series or A4 actually lists for roughly the same as the equivalent Mondeo. These are the reasons.

[alec.e]

Welshbeef said:

Let's take BMW and he 330d for example - it is beyond any doubt a generation or two ahead of all competition. Also frankly what Non Herman maker has a 3ltr diesel which offers remotely close power and economy?

The 2009 XF S 3.0d is quite a close contender, similar MPG, 2010 BMW 535d 0-60 is 0.2s different.

[WJNB]

This is how I see it......

1. Apart from the odd-ball & niche there are no proper British cars of any consequence.
2. Those we 'think' are British are either American or Indian owned.
3. Who buys Frenchie cars given their appalling quality & reliability?
4. If you're a cheap-skate, take pride in letting everybody know how wise you are with your pennies & have
no interest in cars you buy Korean or budget Italian/Spanish.
5. The Japs have infiltrated every sector of the market from vans to sports cars but none of the
brands have serious status or cache.
6. The Italians are good at romance & prettiness but still suffer some reliability, build quality &
poor depreciation.

So in terms of volume premium makers whose left to globally dominate the world (in the premium sector I mean), the Germans!

My personal cynical view & one I'm happy to be corrected or educated about.

[ericmcn]

white_goodman said:

It's something that often comes up in other threads but it seems that every man and his dog wants a new VW/Audi/BMW/Mercedes when it's widely documented that "German" reliability and build quality are not what they're cracked up to be and the service departments at those dealerships seem uninterested in fixing those problems.

Growing up in the 80s/90s, UK roads were dominated by Fords, Vauxhalls and Rovers and then I remember Citroen/Peugeot/Renault becoming very popular in the late 90s. I guess the German invasion began with the introduction of the "cheaper" models (A3/A-Class/1-Series)?

Most other European countries seem to be fairly loyal to their domestic brands but in other continents such as North America/Australasia, mainstream car sales seem to be dominated by the likes of Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai and Kia. Brands that offer good reliability and better warranty, value for money and service. For sure, German vehicles still have a following but mainly at the higher end and there tend to be less engine/trim options, so even the "base" model has decent power and leather seats for example, so maybe the price differential is higher?

To a certain extent, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Non-German brands don't tend to market luxury products in the UK because people don't buy them, so if you need a practical daily with some power and luxury at not too outlandish a price, the choice is dominated by "German" vehicles. I don't tend to spend over 20k on cars but if I did, I would certainly be looking at stuff like Audi RS3s/TT RSs, BMW M3s/M4s, AMG Mercs and Porsche Boxsters/Caymans.

But that doesn't explain all the low spec and modestly-engined Audis/BMWs/Mercedes out there. I haven't bought a brand new car for ages, so maybe I am missing something but why would I want a less reliable, less well-specced, less powerful and less well-warranted car and receive crap service for the privilige when all the recent Fords, Mazda, Kias and Hyundais that I have driven have been so good.

So why do the UK's buying habits differ so much from the rest of the world?

German cars are over rated, period.

The only 'luxury' German cars are at the upper end of the market but most main stream cars certainly are nothing special.

I had a Lexus is250 a few years back and even though it was quite old (2008) its specification would shame most German cars of that irk.

I am not going to change cars again for a bit but I have an eye for a Jag XF, Supercharged.

[rs990]

telecat said:

My Prospective Son in law bought a 320D Xdrive on a lease deal, Nice car. Then he left his job and went to Uni for a few years so decided to terminate it and buy a Petrol 325i Coupe E92 model. Much Prefers it despite it being a 2006 model and not 2014. Drives better. Nicer engine etc. They seem to have lost some of their charisma in the drive to dominate the market.

Surely that's got more to do with the switch from 4 cylinder 4WD diesel to 6 cylinder RWD petrol. The 325i is always going to be a more fun car to drive.

Personally I am driving BMW because nobody else is making 6 cylinder RWD hatchbacks these days. Maybe the next gen RWD Alfa Romeo Giulietta might be future option?

[sparks_E39]

Germany make better cars than the U.K.

Not much made over here is made better than it is somewhere else.

I'm not very patriotic.

[Darryl247W]

For me, the 'Germans', which for me = BMW, M-B and Audi, do a very good job of marketing on the basis of premium AutoBahn stormers. Now, not all of their models actually fulfill that promise, but there's enough of that DNA in the styling of the lower-end models to imbue them with that cachet to most customers. i.e. the average customer thinks their 318i looks close enough to a 335i to not matter. I'm not knocking the German car customer, but it's a vey clever thing the Germans have done to make the base-model similar enough that only an enthusiast might tell the difference without checking the badge on the boot. Is false badging the preserve of German brands, or is it just me thinking that's the case because of the propensity of German cars?

I'd happily let myself get sucked in to an enthusiastic German RWD multi-cylinder saloon, coupe or estate, becuase I don't think anyone else offers such a spread of performance across their range. However when I go searching all I seem to find is 2.0D automatics. When I do find too many cylinders and RWD, the same money could buy me 2 different car from my personal short-list.

But that's Ok, 'cos while the money is going to German cars, I'll go hunt out value performance and fun elsewhere. (And I'm not knocking those who genuinely dig out their own enthusiastic German model.)

[OldGermanHeaps]

white_goodman said:

Have you tried a Mazda 6?

Don't like the drive and reliability issues of their not so old output puts me off. Gravitating towards a new sportage but not sure.

[nickfrog]

Maybe some people buy a car despite it being German as they don't care what nationality it is ?

[white_goodman]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Don't like the drive and reliability issues of their not so old output puts me off. Gravitating towards a new sportage but not sure.

Have you tried the 2013- on model? I genuinely thought that it drove as well as and felt as premium as a BMW/Mercedes/Audi and the image is fairly neutral. New Sportage is great too. If you can get over the badge, it actually has a really nice interior and was surprisingly fun to drive. Kia reliability seems to be holding up pretty well too in their latest generation of cars.