Why the UK obsession with "German" cars?
Discussion
CDB1983 said:
I couldn't agree more. I didn't buy the cayenne because it's likely to be as reliable as the Lexus but it will get down the lane in winter, Makes a nice noise and drives very nicely. It will tow anything and is generally quite impressive for an SUV. (Not needing land cruiser levels of off road ability swayed my decision) reliability was never a huge concern as I've extended the warranty for another 2 years and happened to just like them. If it had a Hyundai badge on the front and ticked all the boxes I would have still bought it but we bought it despite the fact it was German more than because of the fact it's German 
The Lexus is in retirement for when the Cayenne goes at some point and the RAV4 is my "every day" going to the shops, carrying building supplies, massive dog, general abuse vehicle. Can't beat Japanese (Toyota products) for quality.
I have a 13 year old Cayenne from new that has 270,000km on it and has done massive amounts of towing over long distances, has stood outside in Canadian winter and Arizona desert heat, never garaged, covered in minor dents and scratches. One major engine item,( Camshaft lifters), nothing fell off, everything works.The Lexus is in retirement for when the Cayenne goes at some point and the RAV4 is my "every day" going to the shops, carrying building supplies, massive dog, general abuse vehicle. Can't beat Japanese (Toyota products) for quality.
In general all the Porsches I have owned have been bulletproof, whereas the BMWs I had previously were more reliable to have problems. ( Five of each). The few Japanese cars I owned were super reliable, but that was in the rust era, when everything rusted.
Whilst I stand by my original comments that people buy the cars they like, rather than the ones that are most reliable, there is one thing worth bearing in mind, and it's especially pertinent if we're talking about Porsches. Most reliability surveys factor in cost of repair, so a car that doesn't go wrong very often, but with a very high cost of parts and labour, can score worse than a car that's constantly breaking down, but where a fix is cheap. JD Power for example always suffered from this skew in the data.
The other thing to watch for is warranty claims data: company policy varies wildly for warranty claims. My Dad for example once mentioned to BMW that the gearbox on his new-ish 3 series was a bit sticky when cold. They duly replaced the entire clutch and gearbox under warranty, without him even pressing.
Finally, it's also worth bearing in mind the skew in reporting that happens with design faults. BMW's timing chain problems were much talked about, because owners were (rightly) annoyed that a £30k+ car could have such an inherent fault, and it made a good story in the media. However, talk to anyone from Avis or Hertz and they'll tell you about lots of similar grade problems on more mundane cars that don't make the press.
The other thing to watch for is warranty claims data: company policy varies wildly for warranty claims. My Dad for example once mentioned to BMW that the gearbox on his new-ish 3 series was a bit sticky when cold. They duly replaced the entire clutch and gearbox under warranty, without him even pressing.
Finally, it's also worth bearing in mind the skew in reporting that happens with design faults. BMW's timing chain problems were much talked about, because owners were (rightly) annoyed that a £30k+ car could have such an inherent fault, and it made a good story in the media. However, talk to anyone from Avis or Hertz and they'll tell you about lots of similar grade problems on more mundane cars that don't make the press.
av185 said:
Problems not cost per 100 vehicles.
BMW and Audi bottom, Merc just above average.
Vauxhall highly placed.
What ages of vehicle does that data encompass? Data I had seen recently for used cars from about 5-10 years combining both frequency of faults and cost of rectification showed most of the german brands in a rather poor light.BMW and Audi bottom, Merc just above average.
Vauxhall highly placed.
Personally I like German cars but that's not due to any illusion of reliability. Higher end market segments equals more complex cars equals more failures and higher costs to rectify them. The fact that Skoda scores highly on that chart does rather indicate this factor, all their parts are the same as those that can be found in Audi models but they serve cheaper market segments with less complex cars and hence suffer fewer failures.
av185 said:
Problems not cost per 100 vehicles.
BMW and Audi bottom, Merc just above average.
Vauxhall highly placed.
They certainly used to include cost of repair, which is why Vauxhall do so well and companies like Porsche or Mercedes so badly. This was very well known.BMW and Audi bottom, Merc just above average.
Vauxhall highly placed.
There are other issues, namely a lack of weighting, as reported here: https://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/25/jd-power-rethi...
I should re-iterate what I said earlier though about this whole thing being a strawman: people who want reliable cars buy Toyotas. People buy something like a BMW for entirely different reasons.
Glenn63 said:
Because they are usually better. My dog shed is a 13 year old 3 series estate with 80k on the clock and inside is much nicer, more solid, better materials and less (none) squeaks/rattles then my old mans 2 year old Vauxhall mokka.
Qualitatively, absolutely, yes. I'm on my 8th BMW now and my first was back in 2003. None have caused me any problems and all have been an escape from the usual dreariness surrounding any practical car that'll tow, carry big things and seat a family. My reasons for choice have absolutely nothing to do with reliability, and everything to do with driving experience, comfort, and the features that they offer. I suspect most people are the same.RobM77 said:
av185 said:
Problems not cost per 100 vehicles.
BMW and Audi bottom, Merc just above average.
Vauxhall highly placed.
They certainly used to include cost of repair, which is why Vauxhall do so well and companies like Porsche or Mercedes so badly. This was very well known.BMW and Audi bottom, Merc just above average.
Vauxhall highly placed.
I have owned numerous German marques including many Porsche GTs and in terms of reliability as RDMG rightly says in his post, they stand way above any other brand.
BMW have been by far and away the worst as confirmed by the chart.
Sorry I forgot Mclaren my car was in the dealers more than it was on the road lol.
av185 said:
Problems not cost per 100 vehicles.
BMW and Audi bottom, Merc just above average.
Vauxhall highly placed.
These kind of tables are the automotive equivalent of Buzzfeed and only remarkable to the hard of thinkingBMW and Audi bottom, Merc just above average.
Vauxhall highly placed.
All it shows is that there is very little difference between the best and worst cars.
A Land Rover might have twice as many faults as a Kia according to the chart. Or 2 faults compared to 1 fault on average.
So a large number of cars near the top of the table might have no problems at all, but a small proportion might have 5 issues. Or a large number ot cars near the bottom of the table might have no problems at all, but a slightly larger proportion might have 3 issues.
I’m not really fussed by the badge or where it comes from.
My Octavua vRS I previously had was a fab if dull car. It just did all I asked of it with zero fuss but a lot of friends did take the piss and done didn’t understand why I choose it over a 116d with no options.
When I opted out of the car scheme I ended up with a German car but that’s because they were the only ones sticking a six pot in a hatchback. I also considered the i30N. I also tend to get on with BMW ergonomics and love their sports seats. Does it make special etc? No. They’re all volume manufacturers chasing market share.
My Octavua vRS I previously had was a fab if dull car. It just did all I asked of it with zero fuss but a lot of friends did take the piss and done didn’t understand why I choose it over a 116d with no options.
When I opted out of the car scheme I ended up with a German car but that’s because they were the only ones sticking a six pot in a hatchback. I also considered the i30N. I also tend to get on with BMW ergonomics and love their sports seats. Does it make special etc? No. They’re all volume manufacturers chasing market share.
Skodapondy said:
Considering my past is various Austin Rover and Peugeot 
products choosing Skoda and its proven VW bits seemed sensible.
An acquaintance of mine who appears to be very clued up on the automotive industry told me that Skoda had an exceptionally well integrated super site with all the key suppliers there. From a quality perspective he said this gave them some advantages. products choosing Skoda and its proven VW bits seemed sensible.Unless we’re talking bespoke stuff, German and Japanese car makers make the best sports cars. But I wouldn’t buy a VW over say a Ford nowadays. Always liked Mazdas as well. Honda don’t really make anything exciting bar the NSX and Red Bull’s F1 engine - they sell well in the US so its not like they couldn’t be popular here.
Edited by fido on Wednesday 12th August 03:30
dunc_sx said:
There's not much rwd choice on the non sports cars in the uk line up, Jag? That's why I'm more likely to have German, saying that I'm currently 75 percent UK (if ford transit counts as uk?)
Dunc.
Dunc.
Historically this has defined my car choices too. Things were further constrained by BMW offering manual boxes, Mercedes mainly having autos, and Lexus only having auto. Now we have Alfa and Jaguar, soon these will trickle down to the used market, albeit with automatics only. We also now have auto only on most BMWs, which levels things out with the others. Give it five years and they'll be lots of RWD saloon choice, assuming the government aren't making ICE cars impractical to own.Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 12th August 10:13
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