London Emmisions Surcharge - 'The Banger Tax'
Discussion
I'm a car-loving Londoner, and genuinely can't see the massive issue with this. I can't remember the last time I drove into the CC Zone when it was in operation. You'd be mad to unless you really really had to - the traffic is terrible and there's nowhere to park. Get on the train, the tube, or Uber it. It'll be much faster anyway.
Walter Sobchak said:
Yeah I'm familiar with the commercial vehicle LEZ, I'd wonder though how Kahn would be able to justify increasing it that far when there is a fair amount of within the M25 which isn't London, and doesn't have the right to vote for the Mayor, plus air quality and congestion isn't as much of an issue in these areas.
I'd honestly be surprised if he could get it further than the North and South circulars without strong opposition.
He will probably need the government if he was going to go beyond outer London. However other cities are introducing similar things in future. The list is quite long but includes cities like Leeds, Birmingham, Southampton etc. Some of them kicking in next year after the government lost the EU case last year. They were originally going to do this between 2020 and 2025. It has been brought forward to meet targets.I'd honestly be surprised if he could get it further than the North and South circulars without strong opposition.
brickwall said:
I'm a car-loving Londoner, and genuinely can't see the massive issue with this. I can't remember the last time I drove into the CC Zone when it was in operation. You'd be mad to unless you really really had to - the traffic is terrible and there's nowhere to park. Get on the train, the tube, or Uber it. It'll be much faster anyway.
I don't see the issue with this either. It depends where you are, and your options. I drive into the CC Zone almost daily, pay no CC charge and pay less for all day parking than a return ticket on the tube. Traffic can be bad, but if you're flexible on times, it's not that bad at all.
Walter Sobchak said:
I think he'd get away with the North and South circular but within the M25 surely would be a bit of a struggle for him to get through given that a lot of it falls in Kent,Essex,Surrey,Herts etc.
Personally I can't stand driving in London anyway, my main concern is wether this will affect the sale value of my car.
This is the current CCZ and the proposed north/south circular areas. It starts to hit large amounts of residential areas, probably covering 10* the area and at least 10+ the number of roads (consider they will have to put cameras on the perimeter)Personally I can't stand driving in London anyway, my main concern is wether this will affect the sale value of my car.
I wonder if they will offer residents within the North/South Circular large discounts like they do for the currect CCZ residents. I very much doubt it. (Yes I live outside the CCZ but within the North/South Circular and have an old car so will get caught by this even if i head straight out of London)
danllama said:
Thats exactly the point i made. It should be free for residents if they do somehow implement this.
I just don't and won't see the justification for spreading it to RESIDENTIAL parts of London. That's not where the congestion or pollution is an issue!
Aren't most of the cars this scheme is aimed at, driven by residents within the proposed zone? If that is the case, wouldn't exempting residents dramatically lower the efficacy of the scheme?I just don't and won't see the justification for spreading it to RESIDENTIAL parts of London. That's not where the congestion or pollution is an issue!
If the purpose of the scheme is to tax people into changed behaviours, wouldn't it need to specifically include the largest group within it?
I lived at the top of Ladbroke Grove for a couple of years. 'They' moved the cameras to opposite my apartments, so one entrance was in the CG zone and the other wasn't. That caused a bit of extra congestion in the mornings with residents queuing to exit.
The CG and T-tax do reek of ill-thought out punitive taxation, even though cars are cleaner now then ten years ago.
Central London is still free of CG, T-Tax and parking charges in many areas on Sundays, for the South Bank/ St Pauls area there's the Corporation of London Baynard House car park at £2.50 for all day Sunday parking. Mostly empty on the lower floors.
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/services/transport...
The CG and T-tax do reek of ill-thought out punitive taxation, even though cars are cleaner now then ten years ago.
Central London is still free of CG, T-Tax and parking charges in many areas on Sundays, for the South Bank/ St Pauls area there's the Corporation of London Baynard House car park at £2.50 for all day Sunday parking. Mostly empty on the lower floors.
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/services/transport...
delta0 said:
He will probably need the government if he was going to go beyond outer London. However other cities are introducing similar things in future. The list is quite long but includes cities like Leeds, Birmingham, Southampton etc. Some of them kicking in next year after the government lost the EU case last year. They were originally going to do this between 2020 and 2025. It has been brought forward to meet targets.
I hope it doesn't come to that, the main difference to me is those other cities have relatively small centres, implementing this charge within even the North and South circulars will affect a huge amount of people and cars, yet alone within the M25!.NomduJour said:
More pointless politics. Private cars aren't the problem.
I think they are as they aren't as necessary in central London as other vehicles but heavily contribute to the congestion which is obviously the main cause of the pollution whether it be air or noise. At this exact moment, if you look at any of the main roads into central London it is private cars that is clogging them all, every single one. Mile after mile of queue of private cars. We've just had the half terms of private and State coinciding and the roads into London were almost ghostly in comparison. The number of coaches, vans, buses etc didn't change, what suddenly freed up all the roads was a drop in the number of cars.
Other core problems for traffic in recent years can be attributed to a few things the two biggest I think are firstly the massive rise in the use of mincabs. There are now tens of thousands of them holding station in central London. Twenty years ago when you phoned for a minicab you'd have a half hour wait plus. Ten years ago it was under half an hour but today it's just a few minutes. The change really kicked off when the CC was introduced but all these minicabs are in central London on 8-13 hour shifts just clogging the roads. They are taking up space whether under hire or not. Plus the hybrid ones are a joke as the battery is already flat by the time they've driven in from zone 5/6 and they spend all day running on the ICE.
The second enormous contributor to central traffic has been the West London parking permit style that doesn't confine permit holders to small residential areas but allows the holder to park almost anywhere. That small flaw combined with the very rapid cultural change of the residents who have gone from people who walk everywhere to people who consider the act of walking as being linked to poverty and so will drive to the local shops and even drive from shop to shop. The change has been staggering. While in all other parts of central London the residents' cars are sitting idle during the working day in Kensington, Knightsbridge etc they are out working hard.
A third new issue is the sudden, massive rise of central London as a tourist destination for people in England. At the weekend tens of thousands now flood in from the suburbs by car. The main arteries can be as busy on a Saturday night as they are during weekday rush hour. It's crazy just how many people now drive in for a night out. Definitely a huge cultural change among the younger generation who are choosing to drive in rather than take the train.
I'm not sure what the solution is for the minicab problem. And they are certainly a key reason behind the rise in evening and weekend traffic along with the regional tourism.
But one thing is for sure, all that congestion is caused by a genuinely massive growth in the number of cars being driven in from outside. And that won't be changed by the current emissions plans. It can only be changed by stopping so many people from driving into London and that means pricing them out regardless of their vehicle.
As I tend to work unsocial hours and weekends it does amaze me how clogged the roads are even at midnight in London.
In the 80s if I needed to be in at 0630 the roads were empty on my trip in from Croydon, just the odd milk float, remember those.
The other day we finished at 0530 in Stratford on a Sunday and I sat in traffic on my trip home. Where are all these people going?
Even travelling across the country the weekends are far worse.
In the 80s if I needed to be in at 0630 the roads were empty on my trip in from Croydon, just the odd milk float, remember those.
The other day we finished at 0530 in Stratford on a Sunday and I sat in traffic on my trip home. Where are all these people going?
Even travelling across the country the weekends are far worse.
gavsdavs said:
The CCZ is the only area they can effectively police/monitor at this point as there is sufficient camera coverage to do it. Trying to expand this to the North/South circular will require exponentially more cameras to monitor vehicle movement. I currently don't see that effort as realistic.
There are all ready enough cameras in place to catch vehicles travelling across the border of the zone because they're there to catch commercial traffic for the LEZ. From Heathrow to Purfleet, Croydon to Enfield it effectively covers the inside of the M25. They've already got cameras for the CCZ so they just need to dot a few about to catch vehicles that don't cross either border. Could probably do it just by hooking up to already existing ANPR cameras.brickwall said:
I'm a car-loving Londoner, and genuinely can't see the massive issue with this. I can't remember the last time I drove into the CC Zone when it was in operation. You'd be mad to unless you really really had to - the traffic is terrible and there's nowhere to park. Get on the train, the tube, or Uber it. It'll be much faster anyway.
This - I live in London, and rarely drive in during the week. On the very few occasions that I do (usually on a Friday morning, when heading up to Norfolk in the evening, which is easier from The City than my SW London home), I drive in so early to avoid traffic, that I avoid the CC charge too. London's air is a mess. Anything to reduce traffic is a good thing.
My issues with this are, however:
1) creep. All very well having the centre emissions controlled. But if this extends a) to a larger area and b) to the weekends, this will be a pain
2) public transport infrastructure. It creaks during rush hour, and often doesn't work at all (I live in Streatham, on a Southern Trains line, and frankly it is a nightmare). London's spending on transport (and other services) seems to be stalling. It would be nice if this tax went towards improving public transportt, but I suspect it won't.
DonkeyApple said:
I think they are as they aren't as necessary in central London as other vehicles but heavily contribute to the congestion which is obviously the main cause of the pollution whether it be air or noise. At this exact moment, if you look at any of the main roads into central London it is private cars that is clogging them all, every single one. Mile after mile of queue of private cars.
Not really convinced, particularly so re commuting - a tiny, tiny minority of workers in town have anywhere to park at their place of work. http://inrix.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/INRIX_...
"Key Findings in the Report show:
Traffic congestion in London has risen noticeably since 2012, with journey times in Central London increasing by 12% annually.
Car traffic, including taxis and private hire vehicles (PHVs), is decreasing in Central London and the Congestion Charge Zone; meaning these vehicles are not causing the rise in congestion.
Travel demand on London’s roads is flat or decreasing in Central London; increased use of public transport and other modes may explain why traffic volumes haven’t risen.
Substantial planned roadworks in London, having increased by 362% since 2012, and an overall 7.7% rise of light goods vehicles (LGVs) are major causes of congestion".
Interesting thing there is that car traffic is decreasing, even taking into account the massive increase in private hire vehicles (about 100,000 of them).
croyde said:
As I tend to work unsocial hours and weekends it does amaze me how clogged the roads are even at midnight in London.
In the 80s if I needed to be in at 0630 the roads were empty on my trip in from Croydon, just the odd milk float, remember those.
The other day we finished at 0530 in Stratford on a Sunday and I sat in traffic on my trip home. Where are all these people going?
Even travelling across the country the weekends are far worse.
I think much of the change in the late hours is down to everyone being 24 hour party people these days and the suburbs being so spendy that there are far more people travel into Town to eat and drink than ever before. Even City restaurants and bars are open at weekends now. In the 80s if I needed to be in at 0630 the roads were empty on my trip in from Croydon, just the odd milk float, remember those.
The other day we finished at 0530 in Stratford on a Sunday and I sat in traffic on my trip home. Where are all these people going?
Even travelling across the country the weekends are far worse.
NomduJour said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think they are as they aren't as necessary in central London as other vehicles but heavily contribute to the congestion which is obviously the main cause of the pollution whether it be air or noise. At this exact moment, if you look at any of the main roads into central London it is private cars that is clogging them all, every single one. Mile after mile of queue of private cars.
Not really convinced, particularly so re commuting - a tiny, tiny minority of workers in town have anywhere to park at their place of work. http://inrix.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/INRIX_...
"Key Findings in the Report show:
Traffic congestion in London has risen noticeably since 2012, with journey times in Central London increasing by 12% annually.
Car traffic, including taxis and private hire vehicles (PHVs), is decreasing in Central London and the Congestion Charge Zone; meaning these vehicles are not causing the rise in congestion.
Travel demand on London’s roads is flat or decreasing in Central London; increased use of public transport and other modes may explain why traffic volumes haven’t risen.
Substantial planned roadworks in London, having increased by 362% since 2012, and an overall 7.7% rise of light goods vehicles (LGVs) are major causes of congestion".
Interesting thing there is that car traffic is decreasing, even taking into account the massive increase in private hire vehicles (about 100,000 of them).
But wherever they are ending up, vast numbers of people are driving cars into London every day. The only credible solution if air and noise pollution is so serious is to halt them. Price them out or better just ban them and release the private sector to ferry people about in more efficient minibuses, buses etc. What we do know is that no problem will actually be fixed by forcing thousands of poor people to go deeper into debt because they have to buy a new car they don't actually need.
To be honest, I live about 20 miles south of central London and I commute in by train each day for work. I also own a 2003 diesel car and yet it doesn't phase me that there is an additional 'congestion' charge.
I can honestly say that there has only been one occasion in the 11 years of working up here that I've needed to pay the congestion charge (for business so they paid!) so I can't see it having a huge affect on most average people.
I will be interested to see how it will affect businesses though. Being a car nerd I do keep my eyes open for what's on the roads round central London and I can't see a lot of old chuggers or high polluting. Back cabs and buses seem to be the real offenders if I'm honest.
If it works in improving air quality then I'm not complaining but I can't help thinking it's another stealth tax.
I can honestly say that there has only been one occasion in the 11 years of working up here that I've needed to pay the congestion charge (for business so they paid!) so I can't see it having a huge affect on most average people.
I will be interested to see how it will affect businesses though. Being a car nerd I do keep my eyes open for what's on the roads round central London and I can't see a lot of old chuggers or high polluting. Back cabs and buses seem to be the real offenders if I'm honest.
If it works in improving air quality then I'm not complaining but I can't help thinking it's another stealth tax.
My focus would be on rapidly limiting bus and taxi emissions (entirely within TfL's remit - they spend enough on buses to commission whatever they need), looking into putting trams/trolleybuses on Oxford Street and other clogged routes, being ruthless about punishing roadworks delays and inconvenience, having an objective and reasoned rethink of cycle route layouts and doing something to limit local online delivery traffic (move to electric/CNG/whatever vans, incentivise drop-off and collection points at stations, local shops etc.).
If car traffic is shown to be decreasing and cars are becoming less polluting, the problem is elsewhere (i.e. dirty diesel buses, taxis, delivery vehicles and pollution caused by unnecessary delays like idiot roadworks schemes).
If car traffic is shown to be decreasing and cars are becoming less polluting, the problem is elsewhere (i.e. dirty diesel buses, taxis, delivery vehicles and pollution caused by unnecessary delays like idiot roadworks schemes).
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