London Emmisions Surcharge - 'The Banger Tax'
Discussion
It makes no difference, people who wish to go aren't going to fret about £10! It will however put more strain on those that own older cars out of necessity. But since when has anyone in power thought things through, better this than tackle the buses, taxis and delivery vehicles belching black smoke into the environment.
Yet another reason to use the train. What with parking, traffic and scameras I can think of few places I'd less rather drive around
Yet another reason to use the train. What with parking, traffic and scameras I can think of few places I'd less rather drive around
JD said:
Sorry I thought we were talking about hybrid taxis designed exactly for this purpose, not hybrid cars in general, wires crossed.
The new taxis are exactly that, range extended battery vehicles.
I was talking about minicabs though, as opposed to taxis but will minicabs have to stop using hybrid cars and use these new taxis?. If black cabs will be cleaned up in the same way as buses with a specifically designed solution then this will be a huge help but the number of black cabs hasn't really grown over the last decade unlike the meteoric rise of the minicab. The new taxis are exactly that, range extended battery vehicles.
There are 20-25,000 taxis in London but this number has been at this level for years. When you look at minicabs there has apparently been a 56% rise in their number in the last two years!! There are now over 100,000 minicabs operating in London. These are vehicles which pretty much spend their working hours taking up space on the road network whether they have a fare or not and that's the huge difference a minicab makes from a private car, it's always driving around, always taking up space, emitting pollution.
While looking for stats on the growth of minicab numbers I found this article which while it must contain a bias is still of interest:
https://www.addisonlee.com/addlib/london-journey-t...
This paper suggests that travel times have essentially doubled in the last 5 years. That means that the average vehicle potentially pollutes around twice as much as it did 5 years ago. It also raises the interesting aspect of the significant growth in vans which they put down to the rise in evommerce: http://londonfirst.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/0...
Trying to find actual data on the number of car journeys is rather difficult as it is a political issue so the waters are muddied somewhat but in theory this should give the answer although I cannot access the data on a phone: https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/vehicles-enteri...
In addition to all of this, the removal of road space for cycle ways will have had a huge impact on congestion and so pollution. History is likely to show this aspect to just be political folly as the number of people who will ever use a bike is extremely limited and the insanity is that as each cycle lane increases congestion so it increases pollution. You could arguably make cycling illegal in London and decrease pollution as vehicles will be able to move more freely!!!!
But it does bring us back to the core point that to truly drop pollution you need to reduce the number of vehicles on the road while the bulk of vehicles are still ICE. Not really boy do more vehicles mean more cumulative pollution, obviously but the impact of slowing them all down extends journey times and so magnified the amount each vehicle is polluting. So we can make buses a bit cleaner, black cabs a bit cleaner and vans, minicabs and private cars a bit cleaner but none of these changes reduce the number of vehicles. Sadly, the only element of the traffic that can be logically halted is the private car. There is the political will to do it, it's easier for the electorate to accept and it is the easiest road user demographic to find quick alternative solutions for.
The simple fact is that the wind is not blowing favourably for the out of town car commuter.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 22 February 08:39
DonkeyApple said:
Which is still pointless as by the time the minicab has driven into London to start work the batteries are flat and they run their ICE all day long. The hybrid thing for cars that spend their whole time operating in inner cities is just a tax wheeze. Their emissions are no lower than a normal car.
On the flip side, the new electric motors on buses are a massive improvement as they are used to accelerate the bus up to the speed where the ICE is far more efficient.
But these aren't the vehicles that are causing the congestion and the reality is that we need a massively expanded bus/minivan network below the traditional bus network and the halting of private cars entering inner London from outside. It's all these cars that are causing all vehicles to sit in slow moving queues hurling out fumes and doing bugger all mpg.
I have started seeing Tesla taxis in London now. I spoke to one of them and he said he had to use the quick charge points but he saves so much money on fuel it makes it worthwhile to go full electric.On the flip side, the new electric motors on buses are a massive improvement as they are used to accelerate the bus up to the speed where the ICE is far more efficient.
But these aren't the vehicles that are causing the congestion and the reality is that we need a massively expanded bus/minivan network below the traditional bus network and the halting of private cars entering inner London from outside. It's all these cars that are causing all vehicles to sit in slow moving queues hurling out fumes and doing bugger all mpg.
Le Monde analysed the source of the 'extra deaths caused by pollution' figures. It's based, they say, on a projection from 2000. 'Emissions have dropped by a third since then, due to cleaner engines but particle emissions remain constant.'
However, they challenge the particle emissions figures as two reports contradict each other.
Also: 'However, [French] agricultural and rural areas are polluted, with 21% of the total emissions coming from agriculture, behind domestic heating (34%), industry (31%) and transport (14% )'
Defra figures, reported in the other thread, say that in Britain, 51% of national NOx pollution comes from other sources [than diesel.]
London's emissions problems, usually cited as much worse during calm climatic episodes, would therefore not be mitigated by much after the T tax arrives, especially in traffic canyons like Oxford street, where cars are currently banned. Future plans to move buses and taxis to low-emissions vehicles might reduce PM emissions.
Reports from the car manufacturers say VW will move to larger 1.6 4 cylinder engines, as smaller turbo triple-engines pollute more, Renault/PSA are working to add SCR (urea) to small engines and say that the European diesel market is still viable for them, even with €1000 added to the price of a diesel for further emissions control. Euro 6d diesel engines will be even cleaner than Euro 6, but increasing traffic numbers may null that.
Le Monde article, via Google translate:
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&a...
However, they challenge the particle emissions figures as two reports contradict each other.
Also: 'However, [French] agricultural and rural areas are polluted, with 21% of the total emissions coming from agriculture, behind domestic heating (34%), industry (31%) and transport (14% )'
Defra figures, reported in the other thread, say that in Britain, 51% of national NOx pollution comes from other sources [than diesel.]
London's emissions problems, usually cited as much worse during calm climatic episodes, would therefore not be mitigated by much after the T tax arrives, especially in traffic canyons like Oxford street, where cars are currently banned. Future plans to move buses and taxis to low-emissions vehicles might reduce PM emissions.
Reports from the car manufacturers say VW will move to larger 1.6 4 cylinder engines, as smaller turbo triple-engines pollute more, Renault/PSA are working to add SCR (urea) to small engines and say that the European diesel market is still viable for them, even with €1000 added to the price of a diesel for further emissions control. Euro 6d diesel engines will be even cleaner than Euro 6, but increasing traffic numbers may null that.
Le Monde article, via Google translate:
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&a...
Edited by Slushbox on Wednesday 22 February 08:40
delta0 said:
I have started seeing Tesla taxis in London now. I spoke to one of them and he said he had to use the quick charge points but he saves so much money on fuel it makes it worthwhile to go full electric.
Interesting - Tesla taxis seem to be relatively common in Stockholm but I haven't seen one in London as yet.NickCQ said:
delta0 said:
I have started seeing Tesla taxis in London now. I spoke to one of them and he said he had to use the quick charge points but he saves so much money on fuel it makes it worthwhile to go full electric.
Interesting - Tesla taxis seem to be relatively common in Stockholm but I haven't seen one in London as yet.But it does raise the very good question as to why the majority of minicabs and taxis couldn't be pure EV if the product was built specifically for that use. The EV structure would allow for super efficient internal storage/packaging as the drivetrain is so small plus while the distance covered by these cars is big during the working day they are generally operating in a very small area which would make quick charging easier as you could easily locate large numbers of charging points by utilising existing parking bays much as 'streetcar' has done. Apps can easily allocate required charging points and also drop cars out of fare requests if they don't have the mileage capacity for that journey.
The new TX5 black cab is a plug-in electric range extender.
Still convinced that a large amount of congestion (which obviously has a knock-on effect re pollution) is down to ongoing roadworks and ill-considered road changes (the cycle routes are a disaster for other road users - Embankment, Elephant & Castle, Queen's Circus, Blackfirars etc.).
Still convinced that a large amount of congestion (which obviously has a knock-on effect re pollution) is down to ongoing roadworks and ill-considered road changes (the cycle routes are a disaster for other road users - Embankment, Elephant & Castle, Queen's Circus, Blackfirars etc.).
NomduJour said:
The new TX5 black cab is a plug-in electric range extender.
Still convinced that a large amount of congestion (which obviously has a knock-on effect re pollution) is down to ongoing roadworks and ill-considered road changes (the cycle routes are a disaster for other road users - Embankment, Elephant & Castle, Queen's Circus, Blackfirars etc.).
I did as well but one of the reports I posted a link to above says that roadworks have been reducing since 2014!!Still convinced that a large amount of congestion (which obviously has a knock-on effect re pollution) is down to ongoing roadworks and ill-considered road changes (the cycle routes are a disaster for other road users - Embankment, Elephant & Castle, Queen's Circus, Blackfirars etc.).
And I know I'll get murdered on here but I still think the adding of cycle lanes has made pollution worse as it has increased congestion and as cycling is just a luxury hobby for white, middle class professionals who could all find alternative solutions the lanes really ought to be removed and the folly and white elephant of hoping all the poor Londoners will suddenly start cycling like Chinese peasant farmers put to bed along with other crackpot dreams from Islington and Notting Hill HQs.
Though if the cycle lane infrastructure is continually improved and cars are priced out of London, I think that cycling will increase enormously? I love cars, but I do think that the private car is not the future of city transport.
I also think that the relatively simple step of everyone that can must work from home at least on day of the week would help greatly. It would also be of benefit to the working person too - one day at home, reduced travel costs etc.
I also think that the relatively simple step of everyone that can must work from home at least on day of the week would help greatly. It would also be of benefit to the working person too - one day at home, reduced travel costs etc.
Chainsaw Rebuild said:
Though if the cycle lane infrastructure is continually improved and cars are priced out of London, I think that cycling will increase enormously? I love cars, but I do think that the private car is not the future of city transport.
I also think that the relatively simple step of everyone that can must work from home at least on day of the week would help greatly. It would also be of benefit to the working person too - one day at home, reduced travel costs etc.
I think you'll get a few more white, middle class professionals by adding more cycle lanes but it's never going to be a mode of transport for the masses in London unless people are actually forced to ride bikes. The topography is simply terrible for the majority. It's fine for the people who live East West by the river but not for anyone else. It really is a dead end elitist folly ultimately. A descision needs to be made as to whether London is cycling only or motor vehicle only as mixing the two is just increasing congestion. I also think that the relatively simple step of everyone that can must work from home at least on day of the week would help greatly. It would also be of benefit to the working person too - one day at home, reduced travel costs etc.
It's amazing to see the European cities that do have very large numbers of cyclists but like 24 hour cafe culture some things just don't translate. To be efficient in London it needs to be one or the other. Obviously pure cycling with no private cars would probably be the better option albeit it a shocking one to us lovers of cars.
Chainsaw Rebuild said:
I also think that the relatively simple step of everyone that can must work from home at least on day of the week would help greatly. It would also be of benefit to the working person too - one day at home, reduced travel costs etc.
I could work from home, but it would be less convenient than the ten minute walk to get there so I'd rather not.Put a search about ideas for easing congestion in central London and all you get is taxation whether it's a daily charge, differing amounts for different vehicles or a charge per mile scheme.
All about making money not spending it.
Be done with it and build motorways crisscrossing London. Double decker, triple decker even quadruple decker. Towering over the surface streets. I want the place to look like Mega City 1.
Still have a charging system to pay for it and the 1000ft high parking towers. Problem solved, low pollution thanks to traffic constantly moving and leave the surface streets to cycles and motorbikes.
All I ask is for a meagre pension for coming up with the idea. Thanks
All about making money not spending it.
Be done with it and build motorways crisscrossing London. Double decker, triple decker even quadruple decker. Towering over the surface streets. I want the place to look like Mega City 1.
Still have a charging system to pay for it and the 1000ft high parking towers. Problem solved, low pollution thanks to traffic constantly moving and leave the surface streets to cycles and motorbikes.
All I ask is for a meagre pension for coming up with the idea. Thanks
To those supporting the scheme soryy but I feel you are wrong. Yes there are vehicles which pollute london massively. The overwhelmingly most polluting vehicles are busses, taxis and HGVS.
Petrol engined vehicles by comparison emit iirc 3-5x less harmful chemicals than diesels.
Likewise they say you coud use public transport. Get f
ked. My company once asked why drive into central london instead of parking on the outskirts and taking public transport.
I advised them that once you factor in the cost of parking plus paying for the massively expensive tube/bus to end destination it would be cheaper to drive to end destination. Then when you add in the fact that the one or two times i tried it i could have driven to where i was going faster in my car it became a no brainer.
I just had my car in for a bunch of work. Originally I was only going to have it in for a day. I live in canterbury. The garage is in maidstone. A return ticket on the train was £16. A hire car was £20.
With the hire car I could go anywhere and do anything all day. Couple that with the fact I didnt have to worry about a timetable and more importantly sharing space with common scum why the hell would i use public transport?
Until they make it cheap and efficient enough I will stick to using my car thanks very much. every now and again the sums may lean over to it would have been cheaper to use public transport but until then no thanks.
Petrol engined vehicles by comparison emit iirc 3-5x less harmful chemicals than diesels.
Likewise they say you coud use public transport. Get f
ked. My company once asked why drive into central london instead of parking on the outskirts and taking public transport.I advised them that once you factor in the cost of parking plus paying for the massively expensive tube/bus to end destination it would be cheaper to drive to end destination. Then when you add in the fact that the one or two times i tried it i could have driven to where i was going faster in my car it became a no brainer.
I just had my car in for a bunch of work. Originally I was only going to have it in for a day. I live in canterbury. The garage is in maidstone. A return ticket on the train was £16. A hire car was £20.
With the hire car I could go anywhere and do anything all day. Couple that with the fact I didnt have to worry about a timetable and more importantly sharing space with common scum why the hell would i use public transport?
Until they make it cheap and efficient enough I will stick to using my car thanks very much. every now and again the sums may lean over to it would have been cheaper to use public transport but until then no thanks.
Given the fact that none of my cars are able to do more than 15MPG around town I am wary about getting on my high horse about this, but as a life long Londoner this Tax completely misses the point and will no the square route of sod all to alleviate pollution in the city. The amount of actual pollution of pre 05 cars that will daily enter the CC zone is going to be minute in comparison to the poorly maintained diesel Buses and Taxis that make their bread in the city.
I find it insulting that TFL, the organization that not only operates buses that are so poorly maintained that the majority will literally 'roll coal' over pedestrians when pulling off spewing out tons of noxious crap, soot and smoke out, but also regulate Black Cabs, which are incidentally THE most filthy, dirty, poorly maintained vehicles I've ever had the displeasure of working with, have the cheek to claim that a handful of older cars are the cause for London's pollution. But of course, CO2, something consumed by trees is very, very bad. NOx, soot particles, and a plethora of other crap that causes Cancer, asthma, etc is good
.
And that's before we get to the 'social cleansing' aspect that this sort of thing. With the soaring rents, gentrification and non replacement of social housing London is quickly becoming a city only for the rich and a charge that specifically penalises the poor (Let's be honest, The vast majority of people that drive old cars do so because they cannot afford anything newer) only solidifies this.
Just means that I'll no longer be able to take my seriously ill mother to her regular appointments at the Royal Free. A tenner CC plus fuel was steep, but IMO worth it to be able to give her some comfort and support. I am not paying 20 quid+ a day simply out of principal. Instead I'll either have to spend an extra 3 hours idling my car whilst stuck in the traffic through tower bridge trying to avoid the zone, or more likely look into getting her a Taxi from the deep depths of South London to Camden and back again... At the tax payers expense...
I find it insulting that TFL, the organization that not only operates buses that are so poorly maintained that the majority will literally 'roll coal' over pedestrians when pulling off spewing out tons of noxious crap, soot and smoke out, but also regulate Black Cabs, which are incidentally THE most filthy, dirty, poorly maintained vehicles I've ever had the displeasure of working with, have the cheek to claim that a handful of older cars are the cause for London's pollution. But of course, CO2, something consumed by trees is very, very bad. NOx, soot particles, and a plethora of other crap that causes Cancer, asthma, etc is good
. And that's before we get to the 'social cleansing' aspect that this sort of thing. With the soaring rents, gentrification and non replacement of social housing London is quickly becoming a city only for the rich and a charge that specifically penalises the poor (Let's be honest, The vast majority of people that drive old cars do so because they cannot afford anything newer) only solidifies this.
Just means that I'll no longer be able to take my seriously ill mother to her regular appointments at the Royal Free. A tenner CC plus fuel was steep, but IMO worth it to be able to give her some comfort and support. I am not paying 20 quid+ a day simply out of principal. Instead I'll either have to spend an extra 3 hours idling my car whilst stuck in the traffic through tower bridge trying to avoid the zone, or more likely look into getting her a Taxi from the deep depths of South London to Camden and back again... At the tax payers expense...
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