RE: Enjoying a fast car slowly
Discussion
canucklehead said:
Highly interesting. Every time I see something in this area, the takeaway is try to think ahead better, be more prepared. You'll be smoother and faster. If you've ever seen Jackie Stewart talking about this, he says much of the same things.
Exactly. He must be a wheel shuffler too, then... 
Talking of Mr Stewart, did anyone else go to Odeon tonight to see The Green Hell? Fantastic documentary and a well spent two hours' peace and quiet on my own!Michaelhunt said:
What do you mean by Reg prefers to hold the revs rather than blip the throttle?
As per this video:https://youtu.be/A4rs09AKBc8
Fast forward to about 5:25 for rev-matching stuff.
Speed addicted said:
To be fair the way to get better at most things is through training. You can only learn so much without outside influences.
I found during the bike training having someone who knew what they were talking about watch what I was doing and suggest better ways to do it was effective.
It's made me a faster and smoother rider because I'm more proactive and planning ahead instead of just reacting to what's going on.
I hope to get the same result from more training in the car, I haven't really done any since I passed my test 22 years ago and would like to be better at it.
I'm not anti learning, I'm just trying to dispel the myth that the way to learning is didactic. There are many ways we are learning every time we get into a car either with the choice of car, or the choice of drive, or even with the amount of interest in what we are doing.I found during the bike training having someone who knew what they were talking about watch what I was doing and suggest better ways to do it was effective.
It's made me a faster and smoother rider because I'm more proactive and planning ahead instead of just reacting to what's going on.
I hope to get the same result from more training in the car, I haven't really done any since I passed my test 22 years ago and would like to be better at it.
If the IAM/ADV method of driver training was effective then why isn't it universally accepted to lower insurance?
The teacher pupil model of learning is useful for the unknown unknowns but its not the only model for solving that problem. Its not even the most widely used
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Strangely I have nothing against the IAM/ADV method of learning, its not a forum I visit because of the endless bearding but it has its place in those who find enjoyment in that delivery style. Its just when people post that they have found the 'way' they become almost born again drivers with all the religious baggage of wanting to spread the word. In effect its a narrow perspective.
julian64 said:
Speed addicted said:
To be fair the way to get better at most things is through training. You can only learn so much without outside influences.
I found during the bike training having someone who knew what they were talking about watch what I was doing and suggest better ways to do it was effective.
It's made me a faster and smoother rider because I'm more proactive and planning ahead instead of just reacting to what's going on.
I hope to get the same result from more training in the car, I haven't really done any since I passed my test 22 years ago and would like to be better at it.
I'm not anti learning, I'm just trying to dispel the myth that the way to learning is didactic. There are many ways we are learning every time we get into a car either with the choice of car, or the choice of drive, or even with the amount of interest in what we are doing.I found during the bike training having someone who knew what they were talking about watch what I was doing and suggest better ways to do it was effective.
It's made me a faster and smoother rider because I'm more proactive and planning ahead instead of just reacting to what's going on.
I hope to get the same result from more training in the car, I haven't really done any since I passed my test 22 years ago and would like to be better at it.
If the IAM/ADV method of driver training was effective then why isn't it universally accepted to lower insurance?
The teacher pupil model of learning is useful for the unknown unknowns but its not the only model for solving that problem. Its not even the most widely used
.
.
.
Strangely I have nothing against the IAM/ADV method of learning, its not a forum I visit because of the endless bearding but it has its place in those who find enjoyment in that delivery style. Its just when people post that they have found the 'way' they become almost born again drivers with all the religious baggage of wanting to spread the word. In effect its a narrow perspective.
I view getting more training as a good way of picking up skills that I may have lost or never really considered. I think it's good to have someone objectively look at your driving or riding and tell you how to do it better as long as it's constructive.
The downside is that I'm mostly interested in the performance aspect of driving for enjoyment, this doesn't appear to be what the IAM or others are about.
Advanced training certainly made me a better motorcyclist, smoothing my inputs and looking further ahead allows me to carry more speed through corners.
Michaelhunt said:
So essentially you are not blipping the throttle, just effectively keeping the accelerator pressed while changing gear?
Why would you use this method over say a heel and toe downshift? Is it more of a road comfort thing? I don't recall Senna doing this
There are generally two ways for doing H&T blip or holdWhy would you use this method over say a heel and toe downshift? Is it more of a road comfort thing? I don't recall Senna doing this
In my job I often to get to sit alongside normal drivers doing their normal driving thing. It's pretty shocking just how bad the majority are. Most will pick a speed range & stick to it regardless of blind bends, junctions, potential oncoming traffic, they are happily unaware of hazards.
Every now & then you sit alongside someone who uses these techniques, its maybe 3 or 4 in 100 & the difference is astounding. Observation is 10 times the norm, speed can vary dramatically, they'll use full acceleration, and cover the brakes a lot more.
There is also something to be said for being slightly quicker but covering the brakes a lot more in anticipation, where normal drivers would not.
As an example my wife a fairly confident driver, on her rural route to work. There are the various usual pinch points on the way, she does not cover the brakes on the approach to these, I do. Though she is aware of the likelihood of having to stop she still will be on light throttle on the approach. Its somewhat unnerving! Myself I'll be at the same speed but in a taller gear so not slowing down but with my foot over the brake ready.
Every now & then you sit alongside someone who uses these techniques, its maybe 3 or 4 in 100 & the difference is astounding. Observation is 10 times the norm, speed can vary dramatically, they'll use full acceleration, and cover the brakes a lot more.
There is also something to be said for being slightly quicker but covering the brakes a lot more in anticipation, where normal drivers would not.
As an example my wife a fairly confident driver, on her rural route to work. There are the various usual pinch points on the way, she does not cover the brakes on the approach to these, I do. Though she is aware of the likelihood of having to stop she still will be on light throttle on the approach. Its somewhat unnerving! Myself I'll be at the same speed but in a taller gear so not slowing down but with my foot over the brake ready.
cptsideways said:
There are generally two ways for doing H&T blip or hold
On upshifts, it's not really heel and toe though as you are not pressing the brakes (i.e. operating two pedals with one foot), although it is rev-matching.On a downshift, on approach to a roundabout say, you couldn't really do heel and toe without pressing brake pedal and rolling over to the throttle i.e. if you brake, clutch in, downshift, release clutch and move right foot to rev-match, that is rev-matching but not heel and toe. Close, but not quite.
It's all getting complex now from what I can gather reg's method is for when you aren't braking and heel and toe is for when you are?
That's my understanding of it. I would probably prefer to carry on as normal and just rev match when I'm not braking as you are only wasting a tiny "blip" of fuel lol
That's my understanding of it. I would probably prefer to carry on as normal and just rev match when I'm not braking as you are only wasting a tiny "blip" of fuel lol
Michaelhunt said:
It's all getting complex now from what I can gather reg's method is for when you aren't braking and heel and toe is for when you are?
That's my understanding of it. I would probably prefer to carry on as normal and just rev match when I'm not braking as you are only wasting a tiny "blip" of fuel lol
Blipping and holding are different methods of rev matching.That's my understanding of it. I would probably prefer to carry on as normal and just rev match when I'm not braking as you are only wasting a tiny "blip" of fuel lol
Heel and toe is a method for either blipping or holding while you are braking.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
For upshifts I've found in many of the cars I've owned/driven lots that the 'natural' speed* of the gear-change (i.e. the time it feels right to take to do it, based on throw/resistance/etc.) is pretty similar to the time it takes the revs to drop the right amount...so you shouldn't NEED to actively manage the revs in the way Reg describes.
...which is why I don't really hold with 'short shift kits' or lighter flywheels on road cars. YMMV...and not all cars are engineered the same way.
Downshifts I agree completely - no right or wrong, just personal preference, although the ability to do both would be good. I seem to HnT probably more than I should, certainly more than I need to, because it feels satisfying to me and the pedals in my cars are well-spaced and weighted for it. I have driven cars where HnT is bloody difficult because of pedal spacing/alignment, so have then had to 're-learn' the separation technique.
(One advantage of Reg's method, to be fair, is that if blipping the throttle you need to release the clutch at EXACTLY the right moment, whereas if matching-and-holding you don't have that time constraint)
* Self-analysing this could be the other way around - it could be a learned, symbiotic thing where you naturally adjust your upshift pace to the revs...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry to contradict you, but please fast forward to 21:20 in this video...https://youtu.be/L13E7ou-BhY
Just because I don't do something very often doesn't mean I don't do it at all, or that I've any objections to it, or that I'm being dogmatic.
H&T is one of the tools in the toolbox - it's just that it's one of those tools I use a little less often.
In fact, I'll be filming a video soon where I look at a variety of gearchanging techniques in more detail, such as double de-clutching, clutchless gearchanges and heel & toe.
H&T is essential for track and i find i comes very naturally. But back on the road with the brake pedal not buried it's a nightmare, so i blip. I console myself that separation on the road is appropriate anyway!
I also find it hard to match/hold revs in modern cars, maybe me but the sensitivity isn't there. I have done it with older cars that had cables etc.
I also find it hard to match/hold revs in modern cars, maybe me but the sensitivity isn't there. I have done it with older cars that had cables etc.
Through work I used to travel to Aberystwyth/Porthmadog/Anglesey so became very familiar with the routes.
At times in my own mind I'm a driving God - think LJK Setright in his Scirocco Storm , but know I'm fairly crap in reality.
With the utmost respect to Reg, and noting his post stressing line of sight, before, during and after using the "other side of the road", it has to be said that drivers should always stay on their side of the road in my view.
Having been in many varied convoys of fast traffic, we all know the type of situation, assorted snail vehicles progressing at or below the posted speed limits, the pressing on types that will overtake the snails but aren't going for a qualifying time, often in clusters of two, three, four, usually with varied appetite for risks, usually hitting 80,90, around 100mph even - in short bursts, and the out and out racers really reeling in the horizon, again with obviously varied skills and vehicle performance, oh and bikes.
Having witnessed a couple of accidents, and plenty of close calls, one thing is obvious, not everybody that wants to use the other side of the road through corners has the presence of mind to do so.
One particular time springs to mind, coming back from Barmouth, overtaking in a group of three, my Passat 170TDI, a Megane RS, and a BMW 320d, all was relaxed keeping a decent distance behind the car in front, when a Porsche Boxster speeds into the gap braking for the corner. Not a problem. The Boxster then drops a gear, accelerating towards the traffic ahead. Two guys wearing baseball caps in a BMW M3 convertible pass me with a woosh and catch up with the Porsche. Both cars must have been hitting 90 on a long straight approaching an open curve climbing up a steep incline. Fantastic line of sight, literally miles.
Absolutely amazed to see the Porsche cross the white lines and position for the corner whilst the indicating M3 was in the process of overtaking, almost side-swiped. Much flashing of lights and horn pounding, heavy braking but thankfully nothing worse.
Sometimes people must either be in a world of their own, underestimate the closing speed of the car behind, or just throw caution to the wind.
I think making it a rule to stay on your own side of the road is generally the best idea though....one less thing to worry about.
At times in my own mind I'm a driving God - think LJK Setright in his Scirocco Storm , but know I'm fairly crap in reality.
With the utmost respect to Reg, and noting his post stressing line of sight, before, during and after using the "other side of the road", it has to be said that drivers should always stay on their side of the road in my view.
Having been in many varied convoys of fast traffic, we all know the type of situation, assorted snail vehicles progressing at or below the posted speed limits, the pressing on types that will overtake the snails but aren't going for a qualifying time, often in clusters of two, three, four, usually with varied appetite for risks, usually hitting 80,90, around 100mph even - in short bursts, and the out and out racers really reeling in the horizon, again with obviously varied skills and vehicle performance, oh and bikes.
Having witnessed a couple of accidents, and plenty of close calls, one thing is obvious, not everybody that wants to use the other side of the road through corners has the presence of mind to do so.
One particular time springs to mind, coming back from Barmouth, overtaking in a group of three, my Passat 170TDI, a Megane RS, and a BMW 320d, all was relaxed keeping a decent distance behind the car in front, when a Porsche Boxster speeds into the gap braking for the corner. Not a problem. The Boxster then drops a gear, accelerating towards the traffic ahead. Two guys wearing baseball caps in a BMW M3 convertible pass me with a woosh and catch up with the Porsche. Both cars must have been hitting 90 on a long straight approaching an open curve climbing up a steep incline. Fantastic line of sight, literally miles.
Absolutely amazed to see the Porsche cross the white lines and position for the corner whilst the indicating M3 was in the process of overtaking, almost side-swiped. Much flashing of lights and horn pounding, heavy braking but thankfully nothing worse.
Sometimes people must either be in a world of their own, underestimate the closing speed of the car behind, or just throw caution to the wind.
I think making it a rule to stay on your own side of the road is generally the best idea though....one less thing to worry about.
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