RE: Enjoying a fast car slowly

[sealtt]

Any video clips from the day? Would be interested to see what it looks like in practice.

[Mr Tidy]

I understand what Reg is telling Dan, but I can't help thinking there will be too many people reading this header and missing the last word (slowly)!

So they will just head into corners on the wrong side of the road regardless of sight-lines because they are going too F*cking Fast!

I prefer to stay on the left of the white lines, just in case!

[Jex]

Driving like that is like a lot of things in life - you put in the work to understand how to do it, then when you do it it fells easier, more relaxed, but you are actually making good progress and travelling more quickly than someone who is working hard all of the time (analogies: Roger Federer and David Gower in their chosen sports - look effortless, but as good as anyone ever). You also get a sense of satisfaction from doing it well. Even better in a car that is more difficult to drive smoothly.

[akirk]

I think the title could also be misleading with the word slowly - how about driving a fast car more intelligently...
ultimately - lower speed into a corner may feel that you are driving more slowly, but as it allows you onto the power much earlier the result is that you come out of the corner more balanced / stable and able to put down power much sooner - rather than having taken too much power into the corner and coming out scrabbling for grip and having to brake to stabilise the car... end result - slower in can mean faster speed over ground overall - the method Reg Local is promoting isn't about driving slower - it is about being more deliberate / understanding the car more / using the car rather than fighting it - it is about driving more intelligently...

[WCZ]

can't be done imo
the best way to come close is to buy a classic car

[Rob.043]

Nicely timed article.

I had a great brisk drive in my fun car at the weekend for the first time in a month after working on it. I did many miles on a twisty road with loads of fun and very much minimal risk to other users. Then two miles from home I gave it the berries out of a roundabout up a clear dual carriageway, at high speed I then hit a flow of water crossing the road (raining all morning), and had a scary 'tank' slapper to recover from.

Another lesson learned. I take pleasure and pride in driving smoothly and safely, but I need to work hard at avoiding foolish moments of ignoring risks...

[ben5575]

akirk said:

I think the title could also be misleading with the word slowly - how about driving a fast car more intelligently...

Good article. As suggested at a higher level, it is about shifting (evolving?) a driver's mindset away from mash/BRAKE!!/turn in/mash definition of SPEED!!! and refocusing it to smoothness, getting into the zone and flow; from which, speed invariably follows.

Achieving that smoothness, zone and flow requires different things depending on different cars/conditions/roads. Perhaps it is achieving this goal in these ever changing contexts rather than achieving an arbitrary 'speed'/flicker of traction control/feeling fast that should be the focus.

If 'Flow' is the goal, then the capability of the car is largely irrelevant (fast or slow), you just have to approach how you achieve it differently - and take lessons so you can achieve it more often!

The below might help to explain it. Speed = medium skill level/high challenge = Arousal. That's why it's exciting. Flow = high skill level/high challenge. They are different things, but the latter is ultimately more satisfying (be it driving a car/playing the piano/laying bricks/chairing a meeting etc etc).

[havoc]

Loyly said:

ToothbrushMan said:

Regs style comes from a different time with different attitudes I'm afraid, an honest and gentlemanly time.

...but if you can't detach yourself from seething with red mist or have no desire to be a faster, safer driver then it's not for you.

Actually I'd disagree. I think getting some driver training on how to approach driving mentally/emotionally might be a good way of avoiding getting into the 'red mist' / 'competitive' view of on-road driving.

I know I used to do that on occasion, but have since realised that if anything goes wrong (even if not your fault), YOU will be the one in the dock...

Gandahar said:

The best thing is not to have too much tuition, nor wide tyred and overpowered cars, but to have something that lets you experiment and have fun and cock it up at slow speeds. So you go home laughing, and if it goes wrong, not too sad. Everyone needs a car that when spanked by it is not too hard, financially etc, so to continue the great driving journey and to keep your mojo up.

Got to disagree here too - long-time PH'ers will be aware of a chap on here who was driving a (very PH) car that by modern standards isn't that quick (~180bhp, low-torque), when he got it wrong, ended up broadside on a country road, collected a biker in a bad way and ended up in jail for dangerous driving.

Unless you're talking about a true classic car or an MX-5 (and even then, possibly), EVERYTHING has the capacity to get you into trouble if you cock it up...

...and the best way NOT to cock it up is to know what you're doing. Track-tuition will give you the physical skills (and the over-confidence?), on-road tuition will give you the emotional and observational/planning skills that will let you exploit those physical skills SAFELY.

ben5575 said:

If 'Flow' is the goal, then the capability of the car is largely irrelevant (fast or slow), you just have to approach how you achieve it differently - and take lessons so you can achieve it more often!

The below might help to explain it. Speed = medium skill level/high challenge = Arousal. That's why it's exciting. Flow = high skill level/high challenge. They are different things, but the latter is ultimately more satisfying (be it driving a car/playing the piano/laying bricks/chairing a meeting etc etc).

Like that a lot. I think we've all had drives where we've been making proper progress but felt mentally at about "7 or 8/10ths" and got to the end with a big smile but without the adrenalin.

Going back to the article, the issue is usually where you come across other traffic and how you (are able to) negotiate it...

[PhantomPH]

Just to throw my thoughts in here - I have recently been thinking about some sort of course or such ilke to help me 'tune in' to my new car. I've had FWD, RWD, AWD, slow, fast, saloon, sports, coupe, 4x4...but my current car is the first car I have owned that I feel like I am essentially not good enough for the car - yet/ It's a combo of power, RWD, mid-engine etc, that is new to me and I'll happily admit to being not really comfortable with it yet. Pretty afraid it's going to bite me hard and that will be (in this car) very expensive and potentially curtains.

So articles and comments like Reg's are very welcome - regardless of whether the driving gods who frequent PH like it or not.

It's all about learning. I learned the benefits of 'flow' by owning (original) Minis. In those things you had to know how to carry speed as much as possible - once you had lost your momentum you were screwed, ha! I learned how it felt for an RWD car to wag it's tail and how to control that pendulum by having a 1974 Beetle as a daily - drive that in the snow/ice with no traction control etc. and you can feel how the car behaves at about 3mph...nothing safer than that! Similarly my RX8 had incredible balance and (in the wet with DSC off) could swing it's rear, but because of the comparatively low power (230) you were not going at a million miles an hour to get the car to play. My 300hp S3 with it's AWD just seemed to never break traction unless you were particularly stupid on a wet, greasy road - in which case you had to be going too fast, get understeer and then a tiny bit of lift-off oversteer before everything was gathered up and you could hurl yourself at the horizon again.

My point being that every car is different and needs to be learned - but each lesson learned play a part in how easily you start to learn subsequent cars. I really am not sure why people feel the need to rail on an article about just that - learning things.

I know that I want to learn my new car better. Because I know that not only will I be safer, I will also have a LOT more fun. Right now, I can have fun, but that fun feels a tad unsafe!

P~

[ChilliWhizz]

I've had tuition on track, and I know it made me faster, but I also believe it made me safer, it certainly went a long way to removing the fear I often had that I was going to spin off and take some poor bugger with me... Interestingly, the first thing that my instructor picked up on was that I wasn't switching my view from short to long often enough, which surprised me, having ridden fast bikes for a number of years I thought my 'making progress' observational skills were pretty good be it bike or car Not only did it increase my speed through corners, it made me much more relaxed and able to take in more information about what was going on around and in front of me

Page 1 of the Chimaera owners handbook has a short intro from Peter Wheeler which talks about high torque to weight and speed awareness, and finishes off with... 'In summary, we suggest that you observe the old racing adage, "slow in, quick out". Please drive safely and have fun'.

[bordseye]

Interesting review of the ride in the F type. I did the IAM on my bike and found exactly the same thing. that the effort and concentration on riding a particular way made riding more fun, smoother and faster. But I am not convinced that there is one single "right" way of driving / riding and that plod have the key to the door. Instead, I reckon that the greater enjoyment etc is as much the result of driving in a disciplined way rather than the normal day dreaming interspersed with ragging it.

[gazzathehutt]

For those of you in the Beds,Bucks, Northampshire area you have a local "Reg" in the form of Progressive Road Skills. Google it. David is highly recommended for advanced driving or riding.

[Spannerski]

Purity14 said:

Dan Trent said:

Reg's approved technique of going off-side on approach to blind right-handers is a tad unconventional I'll admit. But it's worth it for the looks on the faces of people coming the other way!

Dan

From someone who has been on the recieving end of a car in my lane hitting me head on in similar circumstances, I can assure you the look on my face inside my helmet before impact would not be the look you were expecting.

Next time I am sailing through the air in similar circumstances I will remind myself that it is Reg's approved technique.

Edited by Purity14 on Sunday 19th February 09:55

I agree with Purity 14. I was trained to drive by the Met Pol. And you only went to the other side to improve your vision round a bend not make it worse.

[akirk]

Spannerski said:

Purity14 said:

Dan Trent said:

Reg's approved technique of going off-side on approach to blind right-handers is a tad unconventional I'll admit. But it's worth it for the looks on the faces of people coming the other way!

Dan

From someone who has been on the recieving end of a car in my lane hitting me head on in similar circumstances, I can assure you the look on my face inside my helmet before impact would not be the look you were expecting.

Next time I am sailing through the air in similar circumstances I will remind myself that it is Reg's approved technique.

Edited by Purity14 on Sunday 19th February 09:55

I agree with Purity 14. I was trained to drive by the Met Pol. And you only went to the other side to improve your vision round a bend not make it worse.

I think Dan clarified it - this was tongue-in-cheek using a cropped photo - that is not Dan's or Reg's approach...
Reg's approach is simply - you move out where the time to move back is less than the extra time / vision you gain from moving... otherwise you never move out...

[wc98]

CABC said:

great post Dan.
there's a growing divide between those who enjoy the hobby of driving and those who enjoy the joy of cars.

glad i am not the only one that has noticed this.
ps, really good article, enjoyed the read.

[P1H]

Genuine question - can someone explain how Advanced driving has helped them? Has anyone been initially sceptical but gone on to extract real value?

My pre-conception is that Advanced driving is for people that aren't really interested in cars but have no real hobbies and therefore have arrived at Advanced driving as something to talk about.

I recognise this is hugely sweeping, but it is my perception from looking at the forums.

So what is it actually about?

[akirk]

P1H said:

Genuine question - can someone explain how Advanced driving has helped them? Has anyone been initially sceptical but gone on to extract real value?

My pre-conception is that Advanced driving is for people that aren't really interested in cars but have no real hobbies and therefore have arrived at Advanced driving as something to talk about.

I recognise this is hugely sweeping, but it is my perception from looking at the forums.

So what is it actually about?

I don't think you can generalise - there is a whole variety of people who have done further training, some stereotypes:
- the person who does it to achieve a certificate
- the person who does it to prove that they are the best driver in the world
- the person who does it to build up more confidence on the road
- the person who does it to help them drive a more powerful car
- the person who does it for their job (e.g. services / personal protection / etc.)
- the person who does it because they are interested in stretching themselves
- the person who does it because they see it as a skill like others which they enjoy and where they wish to improve (similar to any sport / hobby)

The way I see AD is like music (of which I have done a fair bit at amateur and professional levels)
- the more you learn, the more you realise there is to learn
- learning and grooving (pushing into the subconscious) the core skills gives you the infrastructure
- the more solid the core skills, the more flexibility there is to allow you your personal interpretation over the top - in music to go free-form without that underlying skill set is a car-crash - in driving that becomes quite literal!
- like music, driving is robotic if it is just skill observation - it comes to life with personal flair and decision making - as with a good musician, there is tempo, flow, beauty to the performance and that is an attractive goal for me...

In my belief what AD is not is a set of rules which you follow and you are now the world's best driver - that is usually stilted and narrow-minded... instead it is a change in attitude / approach / way of thinking... from a me-centric approach to one where like chess on the road you are considering the whole 3D landscape as it adjusts and making the best decisions you can within that...

However, as with music where learning the scales / exercises is generally boring and tedious - but absolutely vital, so there is a core set of skills to initially learn (IAM / RoSPA) which are the basis for real advanced driving - which allow you to then move much more into Reg Local's approach - or to do something like the High Performance Course or to move onto IAM Masters etc. - they aren't / shouldn't be the goal of Advanced Driving, but a first step - however they often are seen as the whole picture / the face of advanced driving and that is a huge negative for those who would benefit but are switched off by that - it is rather like selling someone the concept of learning the saxophone by talking only about scales and exercises - when actually they are sold by hearing someone like Stan Getz or Sonny Rollins play... So with advanced driving, who is going to get excited by boring strictures and rules when actually what sells it is seeing how a good driver makes it effortless, watching the drive flow, seeing them in exactly the right gear / rev range / position / speed for every corner - seeing a master at work - a world apart...

I have done a fair bit over the years, and it has been in sitting alongside some of the best drivers in the country which has opened my eyes to what it is really about - There is AD Hub (note - I run it!) and while it is like any other forum in a mixture of conversation - why not sign up, and then come along to a driving day and drive with someone who can show you...?

[liner33]

P1H said:

Genuine question - can someone explain how Advanced driving has helped them? Has anyone been initially sceptical but gone on to extract real value?

My pre-conception is that Advanced driving is for people that aren't really interested in cars but have no real hobbies and therefore have arrived at Advanced driving as something to talk about.

I recognise this is hugely sweeping, but it is my perception from looking at the forums.

So what is it actually about?

I used to do some additional training every time I stepped up to a bigger bike but its something that I have neglected in driving terms of late. I found that (if you are of the right mindset of course) it can be refreshing to have your driving critiqued every now and then , often bad habits and laziness do slip in and you never stop learning.

Dont understand the comments about crossing the white line, surely altering your road positioning to improve your view is basic commonsense, its certainly incredibly useful when riding bikes and allows smooth, progressive riding

[rainmakerraw]

P1H said:

Genuine question - can someone explain how Advanced driving has helped them? Has anyone been initially sceptical but gone on to extract real value?

My pre-conception is that Advanced driving is for people that aren't really interested in cars but have no real hobbies and therefore have arrived at Advanced driving as something to talk about.

I recognise this is hugely sweeping, but it is my perception from looking at the forums.

So what is it actually about?

I think akirk has put it rather well, but since you asked for real life experiences...

I passed my L test well over a decade ago, and always had an interest in cars and driving. Like most people, I assumed I was an above average driver, was always careful and courteous and enjoyed stretching my car's legs. My passengers occasionally complained I was driving too fast, or too close, but I just assumed they were nervous passengers/poor drivers and I just got on with it; much the same as everyone else. I was intimately familiar with the highway code, didn't take unnecessary risks (I thought), and figured that put me ahead of most of the pack if nothing else. I spent the majority of my mileage driving simply for pleasure, taking the long way round, B road blasts etc and never thought any more of it. It's just driving, right?

When my wife fell pregnant with my first daughter, my wife passed comment that she'd worry if I was to drive the baby alone. Apparently she imagined I'd drive much faster without her in the car, and I would probably kill us both in a fireball. I was pretty indignant at the time, and if I remember correctly we had a couple of days' worth of arguing on and off about it. I decided I'd prove her wrong, and booked a day out with Ride/Drive. After six hours on the road I was wiped out, and realised just how little I knew. The overall assessment was that I was rushing into hazards (even if I'd identified them well in advance), dealing with things far too late, and - like most untrained drivers - had a tendency to zombie out and follow the car in front, never really looking right down the road and formulating a plan. I just dealt with things as I got there, like most people. On the plus side I was told I had a natural flair for car control, was mechanically sympathetic, and it was recommended that I could be 'alright' if I took some further training. The demo drive was what really opened my eyes. It's like watching a master of their craft effortlessly at work. Traffic just melts past, scenery flows, you barely flinch in your seat despite shocking levels of speed carried through corners and roundabouts, and the car never seems to stop moving. Always in the right place, at the right time. The snarls and jams are always somehow avoided, we always found just the right gaps to get through a light before it changed, and the driver seemed to know what other people were going to do before they even knew themselves. Witchcraft!

Over the following few years I had some days out with Reg Local, and that really opened my eyes to what I was missing. I made a thread on here at the time. After that I went into RoSPA/RoADAR and got my first test result (a Gold) last year. While I have met one or two people who were fairly dogmatic, and some who are quick to knock your confidence or put you down, on the whole every advanced driver I've met has been jovial, keen on driving (though not always 'into' cars themselves) and who generally meet up just to share their enjoyment of the open road. I've yet to see a pair of string backed gloves, though! The over-riding values have tended to be safety, smoothness and easy progress and never once have I been told speed is a bad thing. On the contrary, every person who's coached me has told me that smoothness and systematic driving will improve my speed A to B as well as being safer. They've been right.

I am now someone who is passionate about cars, passionate about driving, and who can now actually assess a road/environment and react accordingly. It's a whole other level of enjoyment, as it's not just being in a nice car, but being able to understand everything it's doing, everything the road has to offer, and being able to exploit it - whether you're in a supercharged 5.0 V-something or a 2.0 TDI. No stress, never seeming to get tangled in tailgating or road rage from other users (it's amazing how the daily grind seems to disappear when you know how to really drive to the conditions and take charge of your own drive), and able to get the best out of a given car or road. In hindsight I never was a good driver, and still have a massive way to go. I'm on the baby steps of a long road to improvement, but where before I was enjoying being in a car, now I enjoy controlling a car and wringing out the last bits of what it and the road has to offer. One of my first drives out after going through coaching was a day trip to the Ice Cream Farm in Cheshire. I had a 2014 Mazda 6 2.0 NA at the time, and I'd ticked 'avoid motorways' on the sat nav. As we got into the more rural parts of north Wales, the corners were just floating by and I, the car and the road were one. It's very hard to explain to someone who hasn't 'got it' yet, but there's a real sort of Zen about the whole thing. You go from someone piloting a car down a bit of road (no matter how quickly or unknowingly hamfisted), to someone who has a driving plan that stretches for the next couple of miles, is aware of every hazard in the area, and knows exactly what the next three or four bends are going to do to the balance and physics of the car, drivetrain, tyres etc. As akirk said, it's a lot like chess or jazz. You can do the basics without much thought, but when you really get your teeth into it, there are hidden depths and masses of enjoyment to be had in ways that are hard to put into words.

On reflection it'd be easy to read this and think 'Meh, I do that already'. Now you may well be a natural born driving God (very PH), but what's that old saying about it being impossible to know what you don't know?... I can assure you that until you've had the type of high level coaching that Reg offers, and years of practice, you are absolutely nowhere near your potential. Even after that you're only just starting to uncover the possibilities. The whole RoSPA/IAM/whatever is a very basic foundation to what might come next. I'm proud of my Gold and I worked bloody hard for it, but I'm not so daft as to assume it means much, except to my sense of achievement on the long road to being a better driver. In my case it's just started a new chapter in my love of cars, driving and the road, and I want to pursue more coaching with Reg before going for the HPC. I smell an XFR is next on the cards, and it'd be a shame not to get some enjoyment out of it!

Can you enjoy cars and driving without 'advanced' training? Sure. Just like you can enjoy writing a shopping list without being Charles Dickens. If you care to look, though, a whole new world awaits. To any sceptics, the best thing I can suggest is just pony up and go out with someone for the day. Then decide for yourself.

[P1H]

akirk said:

P1H said:

Genuine question - can someone explain how Advanced driving has helped them? Has anyone been initially sceptical but gone on to extract real value?

My pre-conception is that Advanced driving is for people that aren't really interested in cars but have no real hobbies and therefore have arrived at Advanced driving as something to talk about.

I recognise this is hugely sweeping, but it is my perception from looking at the forums.

So what is it actually about?

I don't think you can generalise - there is a whole variety of people who have done further training, some stereotypes:
- the person who does it to achieve a certificate
- the person who does it to prove that they are the best driver in the world
- the person who does it to build up more confidence on the road
- the person who does it to help them drive a more powerful car
- the person who does it for their job (e.g. services / personal protection / etc.)
- the person who does it because they are interested in stretching themselves
- the person who does it because they see it as a skill like others which they enjoy and where they wish to improve (similar to any sport / hobby)

The way I see AD is like music (of which I have done a fair bit at amateur and professional levels)
- the more you learn, the more you realise there is to learn
- learning and grooving (pushing into the subconscious) the core skills gives you the infrastructure
- the more solid the core skills, the more flexibility there is to allow you your personal interpretation over the top - in music to go free-form without that underlying skill set is a car-crash - in driving that becomes quite literal!
- like music, driving is robotic if it is just skill observation - it comes to life with personal flair and decision making - as with a good musician, there is tempo, flow, beauty to the performance and that is an attractive goal for me...

In my belief what AD is not is a set of rules which you follow and you are now the world's best driver - that is usually stilted and narrow-minded... instead it is a change in attitude / approach / way of thinking... from a me-centric approach to one where like chess on the road you are considering the whole 3D landscape as it adjusts and making the best decisions you can within that...

However, as with music where learning the scales / exercises is generally boring and tedious - but absolutely vital, so there is a core set of skills to initially learn (IAM / RoSPA) which are the basis for real advanced driving - which allow you to then move much more into Reg Local's approach - or to do something like the High Performance Course or to move onto IAM Masters etc. - they aren't / shouldn't be the goal of Advanced Driving, but a first step - however they often are seen as the whole picture / the face of advanced driving and that is a huge negative for those who would benefit but are switched off by that - it is rather like selling someone the concept of learning the saxophone by talking only about scales and exercises - when actually they are sold by hearing someone like Stan Getz or Sonny Rollins play... So with advanced driving, who is going to get excited by boring strictures and rules when actually what sells it is seeing how a good driver makes it effortless, watching the drive flow, seeing them in exactly the right gear / rev range / position / speed for every corner - seeing a master at work - a world apart...

I have done a fair bit over the years, and it has been in sitting alongside some of the best drivers in the country which has opened my eyes to what it is really about - There is AD Hub (note - I run it!) and while it is like any other forum in a mixture of conversation - why not sign up, and then come along to a driving day and drive with someone who can show you...?

Thanks for the detailed response - I see the logic - you don't necessarily know what you don't know I.e unknown unknowns. I will have a think about this.
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