RE: Enjoying a fast car slowly

[ben5575]

akirk said:

...Excellent post...

rainmakerraw said:

...Another excellent post...

Both of you have expanded very eloquently on the point that I was skimming over the surface of.

I liked an interview I read/saw once by a NASCAR racer that I can't now remember. He was asked how he managed to drive the car when surrounded by utter chaos. He replied that to him it was like watching everything around him on a big screen. All he had to do was simply look at where he wanted to go and all of his entrenched knowledge and expertise allowed him to simple do it without thinking. He had that much free mental capacity. See @havoc's 8/10ths journey point for us normal people.

Switch NASCAR racer to Colin McRae, Messi, Peter Kay, Miles Davis, Bruce Lee etc etc.

You may find the following link interesting. Please try and get through his initial presentational style (it improves as he gets into it after a few minutes) and also the leather coat. He's the guy behind the picture I posted earlier: https://www.ted.com/talks/mihaly_csikszentmihalyi_...

[akirk]

P1H said:

Thanks for the detailed response - I see the logic - you don't necessarily know what you don't know I.e unknown unknowns. I will have a think about this.
-

exactly - when I have watched people go through training etc. it is a bit like a journey of adventure and learning - from the outside it is difficult to understand what it is about - as you start, it begins to unfold and the more you do the more you realise there is to the journey - but certainly in my experience there can be a lot of satisfaction in getting it right

[Jex]

rainmakerraw said:

As we got into the more rural parts of north Wales, the corners were just floating by and I, the car and the road were one. It's very hard to explain to someone who hasn't 'got it' yet, but there's a real sort of Zen about the whole thing.

I expect that sounds pretentious to some, but I know exactly how you feel and it's not east to achieve. It's like being in the zone. I play tennis and I think I have truly been in the zone only a couple of times - it's great when it happens and I wish I knew how I got there.

[akirk]

Jex said:

rainmakerraw said:

As we got into the more rural parts of north Wales, the corners were just floating by and I, the car and the road were one. It's very hard to explain to someone who hasn't 'got it' yet, but there's a real sort of Zen about the whole thing.

I expect that sounds pretentious to some, but I know exactly how you feel and it's not east to achieve. It's like being in the zone. I play tennis and I think I have truly been in the zone only a couple of times - it's great when it happens and I wish I knew how I got there.

from the sports psychology I did as a part of my degree (several centuries ago!) it has a lot to do with skills which have been grooved into the subconscious so that no deliberate thought has to initiate the skill / action - it just happens...

it is a result of lots and lots of practice - easy to understand in a sport like tennis, but how many people post test actually go out and practise driving skills - over and over again?

[WJNB]

The fact that 'REG' has some 'orrible budget MX-5-on-a-shoestring import Eunos undermines much of his credibility.

[havoc]

WJNB said:

The fact that 'REG' has some 'orrible budget MX-5-on-a-shoestring import Eunos undermines much of his credibility.

The fact that you've made that statement undermines a lot of yours.

You either aren't aware of or don't care about his previous career, it would seem...Reg's credibility is in as little doubt as John Lyons...

[rainmakerraw]

WJNB said:

The fact that 'REG' has some 'orrible budget MX-5-on-a-shoestring import Eunos undermines much of his credibility.

Oh. You were serious?

[Speed addicted]

P1H said:

Genuine question - can someone explain how Advanced driving has helped them? Has anyone been initially sceptical but gone on to extract real value?

My pre-conception is that Advanced driving is for people that aren't really interested in cars but have no real hobbies and therefore have arrived at Advanced driving as something to talk about.

I recognise this is hugely sweeping, but it is my perception from looking at the forums.

So what is it actually about?

I've done advanced training on motorbikes, simply because I wanted to be better at it. I've never sat an advanced test as I'm not bothered about another piece of paper in a drawer.

Obviously a lot of the road positioning isn't that helpful in the car, but the theory behind it is. If you can see further you can drive faster.
Same for judging how tight corners are and applying power early to settle the car/bike.

It's also really helped my observation skills. I can tell from the passenger seat just how much further I look ahead than my wife or friends.

It's made me a better motorcyclist, one of my friends commented recently that I ride like a cop. I don't lean a huge amount, there's no chance of kneedown but I do carry speed through corners and ride quickly but smoothly.
It's a far less stressful way of traveling on country roads.

I'd like to do some training in the car but the ex-police motorcyclist that does the bike stuff prefers to keep it on two wheels. Finding someone to teach performance oriented driving is difficult as most advanced driving instructors (in my area at least) do seem to fit with the stereotype.

I did one advanced lesson in the car but as the instructor couldn't or wouldn't explain the benefits of changing my behaviour I just felt like they were following advice blindly instead of actually understanding why they were doing what they were doing. The understanding is the biggest thing for me.

[Jex]

Speed addicted said:

I did one advanced lesson in the car but as the instructor couldn't or wouldn't explain the benefits of changing my behaviour I just felt like they were following advice blindly instead of actually understanding why they were doing what they were doing. The understanding is the biggest thing for me.

I have had the same experience - some of what was suggested to me didn't make sense and the person who was training me didn't seem to understand why I questioned him. I still agree that training beyond the test is very useful - all the test does is check if you can start, stop, turn round and drive around for a bit without hitting anything, in daylight (? Are tests ever done at night?)

[akirk]

Speed addicted said:

I'd like to do some training in the car but the ex-police motorcyclist that does the bike stuff prefers to keep it on two wheels. Finding someone to teach performance oriented driving is difficult as most advanced driving instructors (in my area at least) do seem to fit with the stereotype.

I did one advanced lesson in the car but as the instructor couldn't or wouldn't explain the benefits of changing my behaviour I just felt like they were following advice blindly instead of actually understanding why they were doing what they were doing. The understanding is the biggest thing for me.

Reg Local is a good example of someone with the approach you are looking for in cars...
there are others as well...

[Speed addicted]

Jex said:

Speed addicted said:

I did one advanced lesson in the car but as the instructor couldn't or wouldn't explain the benefits of changing my behaviour I just felt like they were following advice blindly instead of actually understanding why they were doing what they were doing. The understanding is the biggest thing for me.

I have had the same experience - some of what was suggested to me didn't make sense and the person who was training me didn't seem to understand why I questioned him. I still agree that training beyond the test is very useful - all the test does is check if you can start, stop, turn round and drive around for a bit without hitting anything, in daylight (? Are tests ever done at night?)

I passed my test 22 years ago, I'd say the biggest influence on my driving was getting a motorbike. It's a lot more involved and you have to pay so much more attention to surface changes and grip levels than you do in the car.
You're a lot less visible too so spend a lot of time second guessing other drivers and looking for clues as to what they might be doing.

The bike test was the same though, when I passed I did a 4 day course with the test on the 5th day. I had no experience at all previously and after passing could have bought anythign I wanted. I'd never ridden in the rain or at night.
One of my mates passed last year and I've spent a bit of time before and after his test to get him looking further and anticipating as the test just makes sure you can go and stop without falling over.

akirk said:

Reg Local is a good example of someone with the approach you are looking for in cars...
there are others as well...

I live in the NE of Scotland, he's not that local for me! I might look into coming down for a couple of days, wonder if I could put it through my business as training....

[Reg Local]

I'll be in the NW of Scotland for a couple of weeks in early August if you can wait...

[akirk]

Speed addicted said:

I live in the NE of Scotland, he's not that local for me! I might look into coming down for a couple of days, wonder if I could put it through my business as training....

To be fair, you might not find many who are local to you
If there is a need for driving in your work, then there can be justification for training - in fact an employer could be seen to be doing duty of care etc. by providing training...

If you are interested - I would do a post in the advanced driving forum to ask for more recommendations - there are a number of options around...
Reg Local is one - the course managers of the High Performance Course are also very highly recommended...

definitely worth doing a trip and staying locally to do such a course...

[bordseye]

P1H said:

Genuine question - can someone explain how Advanced driving has helped them? Has anyone been initially sceptical but gone on to extract real value?

My pre-conception is that Advanced driving is for people that aren't really interested in cars but have no real hobbies and therefore have arrived at Advanced driving as something to talk about.

I recognise this is hugely sweeping, but it is my perception from looking at the forums.

So what is it actually about?

I've only done it on the bike. I'm a born again, in fact born twice again. So when I returned to biking last time in early 2000, I thought it sense to try some training to brush up. I chose the IAM because they were near. I enjoyed the training itself because I was learning new skills and I found that the training made me faster as well as safer. It reduced the common biking habit of riding fast between slow corners and whilst I am retired and ride an adventure bike I find that from A to B down B roads I am as quick as most sensible sports bike riders.

No real hobbies? Well I own my own yacht which I race offshore, a toy car for trackdays, the bike and ride for Blood Bikes. Fairly busy in retirement.

[big_rob_sydney]

I brought up my motorcycling point previously, and I see a few people have had similar experiences.

Just to add to this, and answer another posters question (what has AD training / courses really done for you), I'd say this; I've spent a fair amount of time on track, and generally drive on the road a lot slower these days. Its tempting to say that "you've gotten your fix, etc", but I think there's more to it than that. Its more that I appreciate better what the risks are in an uncontrolled environment.

I'd also go so far as to say that if something WERE to go wrong, I feel a lot more comfortable, and feel like I have more time to deal with it.

Another aspect is that being on the bike and thinking everyone is out to kill me, makes me look for tell-tale signs of driver behaviour. The number of times I've been in the car with my wife and kids and say "watch that car, I bet its about to change lanes", and then it happens, my wife thinks I have ESP. But that's not it. Its about looking at how other drivers are behaving with their car positioning, and trying to figure out ahead of time what they're likely to do. A head start, if you will.

This can also be used to determine if someone might be drunk / drug affected, and whether or not you actually want to be anywhere near such a person. Taking a different road may have saved your life, not that you'd know it.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

I guess everyone's experience is different. I haven't found more modern cars a barrier to achieving flow (in the psychological sense), but it's dependent on either tuning in to the more limited feedback they give, or relying on other feedback - eyes, arse dyno etc.

[julian64]

akirk said:

I don't think you can generalise - there is a whole variety of people who have done further training, some stereotypes:
- the person who does it to achieve a certificate
- the person who does it to prove that they are the best driver in the world
- the person who does it to build up more confidence on the road
- the person who does it to help them drive a more powerful car
- the person who does it for their job (e.g. services / personal protection / etc.)
- the person who does it because they are interested in stretching themselves
- the person who does it because they see it as a skill like others which they enjoy and where they wish to improve (similar to any sport / hobby)

The way I see AD is like music (of which I have done a fair bit at amateur and professional levels)
- the more you learn, the more you realise there is to learn
- learning and grooving (pushing into the subconscious) the core skills gives you the infrastructure
- the more solid the core skills, the more flexibility there is to allow you your personal interpretation over the top - in music to go free-form without that underlying skill set is a car-crash - in driving that becomes quite literal!
- like music, driving is robotic if it is just skill observation - it comes to life with personal flair and decision making - as with a good musician, there is tempo, flow, beauty to the performance and that is an attractive goal for me...

In my belief what AD is not is a set of rules which you follow and you are now the world's best driver - that is usually stilted and narrow-minded... instead it is a change in attitude / approach / way of thinking... from a me-centric approach to one where like chess on the road you are considering the whole 3D landscape as it adjusts and making the best decisions you can within that...

However, as with music where learning the scales / exercises is generally boring and tedious - but absolutely vital, so there is a core set of skills to initially learn (IAM / RoSPA) which are the basis for real advanced driving - which allow you to then move much more into Reg Local's approach - or to do something like the High Performance Course or to move onto IAM Masters etc. - they aren't / shouldn't be the goal of Advanced Driving, but a first step - however they often are seen as the whole picture / the face of advanced driving and that is a huge negative for those who would benefit but are switched off by that - it is rather like selling someone the concept of learning the saxophone by talking only about scales and exercises - when actually they are sold by hearing someone like Stan Getz or Sonny Rollins play... So with advanced driving, who is going to get excited by boring strictures and rules when actually what sells it is seeing how a good driver makes it effortless, watching the drive flow, seeing them in exactly the right gear / rev range / position / speed for every corner - seeing a master at work - a world apart...

I have done a fair bit over the years, and it has been in sitting alongside some of the best drivers in the country which has opened my eyes to what it is really about - There is AD Hub (note - I run it!) and while it is like any other forum in a mixture of conversation - why not sign up, and then come along to a driving day and drive with someone who can show you...?

Biggest load of rubbish ever posted on PH IMHO. Almost religious in its confidence of the path to enlightenment.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

I found I just had to learn to adapt - as long as the relationship is consistent (no matter how crap it is), then it should be possible to compensate for it.

Incidentally, I think that's why I don't get on with automatics - driven in manual mode they're generally fine, but in auto they do things I don't want at times I don't expect, and that means I can't get in the zone.

[swisstoni]

I swear my beard has grown at twice it's normal rate since reading this thread.

[sealtt]

That's the risk of making something fast go slow, you potentially cause everything slow to go fast.