RE: Enjoying a fast car slowly

[TheJimi]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Wait, is this hyperbole or is sneeze-proof steering actually a thing?

[TheJimi]

Yes, I understood the idea of it referring to the dead zone, just didn't know if it was an actual safety feature - sneeze proofing or otherwise!

[ben5575]

julian64 said:

Biggest load of rubbish ever posted on PH IMHO. Almost religious in its confidence of the path to enlightenment.

What an odd comment about a stranger's personal experience.

Personally I thought it captured what is a very complicated concept and expressed it very eloquently. If you have dedicated 10+ years to 'mastering' technique to the point where you can do it without thinking, you create a space to be able to experiment/play/have fun in.

I don't see great guitarists thinking about what their fingers are doing when they creating music with other musicians. Their enjoyment comes from that creativity, not a focus on physically playing a correct note.

In the context of 'enjoying a fast car slowly', the point being made is about learning the bigger, more complete picture of 'driving' so that you no longer focus on making the TC flicker/out right speed (playing a correct note) but rather 'mastering' the sum of the parts.

As Havoc said a few pages back, it's those very rapid but beautifully smooth, 8/10ths drives on your favourite road. You can achieve it on your favourite road because you know it, so all of the not knowing how tight the next bend is/what the camber is doing, is taken out of the equation creating the space for you to have fun/enjoy it. Take some lessons, become a better driver and you'll be able to have those drives on roads you don't know.

[V8RX7]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

^^^THIS

I find it incredible that so few people - even people who claim to be enthusiasts - are aware how joyless modern cars really are.

[julian64]

ben5575 said:

julian64 said:

Biggest load of rubbish ever posted on PH IMHO. Almost religious in its confidence of the path to enlightenment.

What an odd comment about a stranger's personal experience.

Personally I thought it captured what is a very complicated concept and expressed it very eloquently. If you have dedicated 10+ years to 'mastering' technique to the point where you can do it without thinking, you create a space to be able to experiment/play/have fun in.

I don't see great guitarists thinking about what their fingers are doing when they creating music with other musicians. Their enjoyment comes from that creativity, not a focus on physically playing a correct note.

In the context of 'enjoying a fast car slowly', the point being made is about learning the bigger, more complete picture of 'driving' so that you no longer focus on making the TC flicker/out right speed (playing a correct note) but rather 'mastering' the sum of the parts.

As Havoc said a few pages back, it's those very rapid but beautifully smooth, 8/10ths drives on your favourite road. You can achieve it on your favourite road because you know it, so all of the not knowing how tight the next bend is/what the camber is doing, is taken out of the equation creating the space for you to have fun/enjoy it. Take some lessons, become a better driver and you'll be able to have those drives on roads you don't know.

I don't mean to sound rude but you are just as bad. The op managed to write a review which wasn't condescending and tried to explain his experiences of trying to enjoy a fast car slowly through enjoyment of learning.

Both you and the other chap just write long elaborate prose about how you have become better drivers and recommending that lessons and 'advanced driving training' are the way forward to being a better driver. You have extended his experience and are advocating his training to everyone as if it is 'the way forward'

Its a massive assumption that you give as fact.

As interesting as the OPs journey was to read it is his journey only. I very much doubt my driving enjoyment is the same as yours and therefore my route to further enjoyment isn't going to be the same as yours.

If you could show an increased safety having done advanced driver training then at least you could advocate that rather than enjoyment, but I'm not sure that you can even do that.

I don't object to you posting your experiences but please stop at the idea that you know the best way forward for everyone.

[Ho Lee Kau]

Sounds boring, Dan. That's why I have a bike and treat my 580hp car as a relaxing GT (and driving much more actively in a 315hp NA small car).
The scenery is nice though.

[Speed addicted]

julian64 said:

I don't mean to sound rude but you are just as bad. The op managed to write a review which wasn't condescending and tried to explain his experiences of trying to enjoy a fast car slowly through enjoyment of learning.

Both you and the other chap just write long elaborate prose about how you have become better drivers and recommending that lessons and 'advanced driving training' are the way forward to being a better driver. You have extended his experience and are advocating his training to everyone as if it is 'the way forward'

Its a massive assumption that you give as fact.

As interesting as the OPs journey was to read it is his journey only. I very much doubt my driving enjoyment is the same as yours and therefore my route to further enjoyment isn't going to be the same as yours.

If you could show an increased safety having done advanced driver training then at least you could advocate that rather than enjoyment, but I'm not sure that you can even do that.

I don't object to you posting your experiences but please stop at the idea that you know the best way forward for everyone.

To be fair the way to get better at most things is through training. You can only learn so much without outside influences.

I found during the bike training having someone who knew what they were talking about watch what I was doing and suggest better ways to do it was effective.
It's made me a faster and smoother rider because I'm more proactive and planning ahead instead of just reacting to what's going on.

I hope to get the same result from more training in the car, I haven't really done any since I passed my test 22 years ago and would like to be better at it.

[cptsideways]

There is something very satisfying using limit points on a road you have never been on before.

[ChilliWhizz]

Whenever I read these posts about advanced driving and tuition etc it always makes me think of professional golfers.. the worlds best all take tuition no matter how high they are in the world rankings... Same with skiing... (and I'm talking personal experience)... Driving a car quickly and competently (read safely) is a complex thing... anyone who thinks they won't benefit from professional tuition is an idiot... It's probably fair to say, if the only driver training you've had is the lessons for passing your driving test, then you're probably not a competent driver... regardless of how good you think you are...

[V8RX7]

ChilliWhizz said:

It's probably fair to say, if the only driver training you've had is the lessons for passing your driving test, then you're probably not a competent driver

You are aware that competent means:

"Having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully"

I'd suggest anyone who drives regularly and hasn't had a fault accident in 5 years is competent.

[ChilliWhizz]

V8RX7 said:

ChilliWhizz said:

It's probably fair to say, if the only driver training you've had is the lessons for passing your driving test, then you're probably not a competent driver

You are aware that competent means:

"Having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully"

I'd suggest anyone who drives regularly and hasn't had a fault accident in 5 years is competent.

There are different definitions of competent, your's isn't the only one, or necessarily an accurate one.

The HSE defined competency as requiring a combination of training, knowledge, and experience. I'm a safety professional and most of my work is offshore in the oil and gas industry and our interpretation of competency is a bit different to yours.

[V8RX7]

ChilliWhizz said:

I'm a safety professional

[ChilliWhizz]

V8RX7 said:

ChilliWhizz said:

I'm a safety professional

Assessing competency is a large part of what I do.. Rolling eyes is a really intelligent response.. is that the best you can do?

[V8RX7]

ChilliWhizz said:

V8RX7 said:

ChilliWhizz said:

I'm a safety professional

Assessing competency is a large part of what I do.. Rolling eyes is a really intelligent response.. is that the best you can do?

I discovered long ago there is no point using common sense or indeed talking to a "safety professional"

[ben5575]

julian64 said:

I don't mean to sound rude etc.

My apologies, I wasn't trying to sound condescending. Nor was I necessarily advocating IAM training etc. I was latching on to the concept (that is being challenged by the article) that modern cars are too fast and therefore can't be enjoyed on the road without losing your license.

I was trying to make the point that if speed/going fast is your only/main goal then you'll continually be disappointed as fast modern cars get there quickly and efficiently. They are safer and generally more sterile than older cars which required more 'driving' to make the same kind of progress.

With this in mind, perhaps (and I think this is the broader point of the article) if you adjust your goal away from simply going fast and reset it to 'something else', you can go some way to claiming back the pleasure that you used to get from driving. What that 'something else' is, can be something you determine that you are already aware of (like heel and toeing for example) or when you've run out of ideas, learning something new that you weren't aware of from somebody else.

I'm not sure which is more dogmatic; advanced driver training or refusing to change your way of thinking as the cars evolve around you?

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Exactly.

[ChilliWhizz]

V8RX7 said:

I discovered long ago there is no point using common sense or indeed talking to a "safety professional"

Actually I agree, it's become a career path that you can pursue without appropriate experience or needing to demonstrate any useful common sense. I meet a lot of 'safety professionals' that have no real world hands on experience, yet feel they are sufficiently qualified/experienced to tell those that have how they should be doing their job. It can be an interesting subject, but not here...

[canucklehead]

Highly interesting. Every time I see something in this area, the takeaway is try to think ahead better, be more prepared. You'll be smoother and faster. If you've ever seen Jackie Stewart talking about this, he says much of the same things.

[Zajda]

I think this thread needs an onboard video of the holy act itself.
Or new impulse at least, it's starting to remind religious debate.
I am wondering how something like this for example will be regarded among the advanced driver experts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ofx8nDXCo0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH47pi8lUa0

Edited by Zajda on Tuesday 21st February 22:05

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

Yes to the gloves.

No to the speed into hazards and positioning on bends. Unless it was a closed road that's mental.

[Reg Local]

If you want a video, you might as well have one of mine - filmed on the very road Dan and I drove along last week:

https://youtu.be/nJgll4p9QJc