Air suspension and handling

[Saxmaster]

SuperchargedVR6 said:

TotalControl said:

Have seen quite a few cars lately having this mod done. Is air suspension now any better than a good coilover setup in regards to handling?

I'm a little old school in thinking it wouldn't be a patch on handling compared to a good damper/spring setup. Have things moved on much here or am I right with my thoughts?

Looks cool though.

I'm guessing you're referring to this kind of air suspension?

Not a fan personally. Would be cheaper to fill the boot with concrete.

And then get out and unload said concrete. Move the car over the obsticale. Get out and reload the concrete again??

[vz-r_dave]

DanielSan said:

KarlMac said:

Basically this. A lot of people that have just spent a fortune on a cheap air suspension will tell you how great it is, and post a link to a accuair mini on a track day from 3 years ago. However:

Things that use coilovers:
- race cars (actual ones, not scene kiddie)
- Most formula cars

Things that use air:
- buses
- lorries
- luxo barges
- chav'd up diesel Golf's.

Good for comfort, ste for handling.

It is possible for air ride to be quite good,

US Time Attack winning Impreza - http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/12/life-on-air-co...

There was a car in the Japanese D1 series than ran air ride aswell but I can't remember what it was.

Thanks for sharing, was going to do so myself, whilst its unconventional the Impreza inn the article is very competitive. The ignorance on PH never surprises me tho, google is your best friend guys....

[SuperchargedVR6]

Saxmaster said:

SuperchargedVR6 said:

TotalControl said:

Have seen quite a few cars lately having this mod done. Is air suspension now any better than a good coilover setup in regards to handling?

I'm a little old school in thinking it wouldn't be a patch on handling compared to a good damper/spring setup. Have things moved on much here or am I right with my thoughts?

Looks cool though.

I'm guessing you're referring to this kind of air suspension?

Not a fan personally. Would be cheaper to fill the boot with concrete.

And then get out and unload said concrete. Move the car over the obsticale. Get out and reload the concrete again??

Cost cutting has it's drawbacks.

[DanielSan]

vz-r_dave said:

DanielSan said:

KarlMac said:

Basically this. A lot of people that have just spent a fortune on a cheap air suspension will tell you how great it is, and post a link to a accuair mini on a track day from 3 years ago. However:

Things that use coilovers:
- race cars (actual ones, not scene kiddie)
- Most formula cars

Things that use air:
- buses
- lorries
- luxo barges
- chav'd up diesel Golf's.

Good for comfort, ste for handling.

It is possible for air ride to be quite good,

US Time Attack winning Impreza - http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/12/life-on-air-co...

There was a car in the Japanese D1 series than ran air ride aswell but I can't remember what it was.

Thanks for sharing, was going to do so myself, whilst its unconventional the Impreza inn the article is very competitive. The ignorance on PH never surprises me tho, google is your best friend guys....

It's one of those things where you've got to spend the big money to get a kit that will give the height adjustment AND also offer actual performance. Like with everything cheap kits will ride terribly, make the handling awful and do nothing but go up and down. There's a fair few R35 owners in the US running air ride who also track their cars.

[ManOpener]

vz-r_dave said:

DanielSan said:

KarlMac said:

Basically this. A lot of people that have just spent a fortune on a cheap air suspension will tell you how great it is, and post a link to a accuair mini on a track day from 3 years ago. However:

Things that use coilovers:
- race cars (actual ones, not scene kiddie)
- Most formula cars

Things that use air:
- buses
- lorries
- luxo barges
- chav'd up diesel Golf's.

Good for comfort, ste for handling.

It is possible for air ride to be quite good,

US Time Attack winning Impreza - http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/12/life-on-air-co...

There was a car in the Japanese D1 series than ran air ride aswell but I can't remember what it was.

Thanks for sharing, was going to do so myself, whilst its unconventional the Impreza inn the article is very competitive. The ignorance on PH never surprises me tho, google is your best friend guys....

The fact that one or two track or competition cars do well running extremely expensive, bespoke air ride systems doesn't really say much for the performance of most consumer grade stuff. There's a reason it's not really common on performance cars outside of the very cliquey "scene", and that's because it can only compete with decent coil-over suspension on price or performance, not both a the same time.

[Poshbury]

My X350 XJR's had air suspension with CATS as standard.
My current Conti' GT also has the same as standard. With the Bentley, there are 4 different settings for firmness and two for ride height. It also lowers automatically at around 100mph, as does the Jag'.
Works for me.

[KarlMac]

ManOpener said:

vz-r_dave said:

DanielSan said:

KarlMac said:

Basically this. A lot of people that have just spent a fortune on a cheap air suspension will tell you how great it is, and post a link to a accuair mini on a track day from 3 years ago. However:

Things that use coilovers:
- race cars (actual ones, not scene kiddie)
- Most formula cars

Things that use air:
- buses
- lorries
- luxo barges
- chav'd up diesel Golf's.

Good for comfort, ste for handling.

It is possible for air ride to be quite good,

US Time Attack winning Impreza - http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/12/life-on-air-co...

There was a car in the Japanese D1 series than ran air ride aswell but I can't remember what it was.

Thanks for sharing, was going to do so myself, whilst its unconventional the Impreza inn the article is very competitive. The ignorance on PH never surprises me tho, google is your best friend guys....

The fact that one or two track or competition cars do well running extremely expensive, bespoke air ride systems doesn't really say much for the performance of most consumer grade stuff. There's a reason it's not really common on performance cars outside of the very cliquey "scene", and that's because it can only compete with decent coil-over suspension on price or performance, not both a the same time.

I'd also be interested in comparative times with the same car on traditional suspension, I'm fairly sure it would be quicker.

[underphil]

kambites said:

OverSteery said:

I would assume that the 'floaty to firm' is a result of adjustable shocks. Whilst air can lower and raise the suspension, I didn't know that spring rates could be adjusted - or it there some new fangled piece of tech that I don't know about.

If the car is air-sprung, I think changing the pressure (so changing the ride height or using the suspension to maintain the ride height at different loads) will change the effective spring rate.

I believe this to be true (at least for the usual aftermarket kits), you can go low & soft or high & firm!!

[AdamIndy]

The only modified car I have driven with air ride was a VW bora, it was fitted for sick lows obvs. Didn't really push it all but driving normally felt just the same as a normal spring setup but much nicer than the previously fitted KW coilovers. I have no doubt that if I had of tried to bully it around a twisty road it would have turned into a boat though. Not that a bora was ever a good handling car in the first place.

[JoeMk1]

OverSteery said:

I would assume that the 'floaty to firm' is a result of adjustable shocks. Whilst air can lower and raise the suspension, I didn't know that spring rates could be adjusted for handling/performance/comfort - or is there some new fangled piece of tech that I don't know about. (I appreciate ride height levelling will change the effective spring rate)

I had air suspension on my Ranger rover - it failed the day after I bought it. I also had it at the back a discovery, that took several weeks to fail...

Edited by OverSteery on Monday 20th February 13:30

The 2017 Porsche Panamera uses 3 chamber air springs to allow multiple spring rates:

https://wn.com/2017_porsche_panamera_3_chambers_ad...

[caelite]

We have aftermarket air assisted leveling suspension on the back of one of our pickups, this is so we can apply to have the gross train weight increased from 6ton to 7ton. Do you intend to tow 3.5ton with 1ton in your boot? If so then air suspension will probably aid your handling.

If not, no, no it wont.

[OverSteery]

JoeMk1 said:

The 2017 Porsche Panamera uses 3 chamber air springs to allow multiple spring rates:

https://wn.com/2017_porsche_panamera_3_chambers_ad...

OO that's clever, having the choice of multiple spring rates would give some interesting possibilities for varying ride comfort/performance....

[TotalControl]

At least I've learnt something. Always though all air suspension was fundamentally the same.

So the more expensive the system, the better it is or is that not true either?

[kambites]

TotalControl said:

So the more expensive the system, the better it is or is that not true either?

As with most parts, I'm sure there's a correlation but I doubt it's a 1-1 relationship.

[Digitalize]

Half decent brands such as Air Lift, Airrex, HP Drivetech etc will handle more than well enough for road use and if you so wanted track day use, no one is seriously suggesting that it would be used for competitive racing, even if there are examples of that fact.

[problemchild1976]

surely increasing the pressure in the loaded wheels helps maintain a level platform?

in F1, you design from the ground up and pushrod suspension does the same at lower weight penalty.

tesla are moving to air suspension

its defo used in motorsport

its not as reliable as oil filled shocks and springs though

JJ

[kambites]

problemchild1976 said:

surely increasing the pressure in the loaded wheels helps maintain a level platform?

Few, if any, air suspensions setups can change pressure that quickly.

I'm not sure how pushrods help "maintain a level platform"? F1 cars use push- (or pull)-rod suspension to reduce unsprung mass.

[Digitalize]

I believe Airlift's 3H system uses the height sensors to combat body roll but probably not for quick changes, more long sweepers.

[Swampy1982]

Saxmaster said:

Scho said:

Hang on, You bought a cayman and you don't want to corner at speed?

Exactly, I didn't buy it for track days or the cars capabilities etc. Merely the fact I just liked it he car.

Needs pics or don't believe

[Swampy1982]

Saxmaster said:

Scho said:

Hang on, You bought a cayman and you don't want to corner at speed?

Exactly, I didn't buy it for track days or the cars capabilities etc. Merely the fact I just liked it he car.

Needs pics or don't believe