A woman cyclist scorned...
Discussion
NinjaPower said:
It simply isn't ok to harass a woman, or anyone in fact, the way that the Neanderthal in the van was doing.
People should be fully entitled to go about their lives without that kind of thing happening.
Whilst I generally don't agree with criminal damage or physical violence, there are portions of society that simply don't understand any form of punishment or retribution except those things. They are completely disinterested in what the police would have to say to them, or indeed anyone else.
If causing £1000 worth of damage is the only way to get these kind of primates to think twice about shouting out of their van window at women, then so be it.
Obviously this video is fake, but the reaction is what we're discussing here. We pay taxes that go towards this thing called police. Women or not there's no justification or place for illegal retribution . Most society would love to be able to dish out instant paybacks and since you're a biker I'm guessing you'd love to smash in windows of cars that do something silly that puts you at risk but you don't do this, do you. Although I wouldn't be surprised if you said that you do. People should be fully entitled to go about their lives without that kind of thing happening.
Whilst I generally don't agree with criminal damage or physical violence, there are portions of society that simply don't understand any form of punishment or retribution except those things. They are completely disinterested in what the police would have to say to them, or indeed anyone else.
If causing £1000 worth of damage is the only way to get these kind of primates to think twice about shouting out of their van window at women, then so be it.
NinjaPower said:
If causing £1000 worth of damage is the only way to get these kind of primates to think twice about shouting out of their van window at women, then so be it.
No, that's not 'it' at all. The way it works is the woman takes the vans reg and finding a witness contacts the Police. The woman will survive easily enough and in a few weeks will have overcome the trauma. If however a witness sees her scratch the van she could end up with a criminal record, which will haunt her for the rest of her life. Quite apart from the fact it's morally wrong to vandalise someone's property just because you don't like what they said to you.Ayahuasca said:
Chasing down and deliberately damaging a vehicle after a verbal altercation? No matter what the provocation, her reaction is out of order.
She seems to have anger issues and needs to be spoken to by the police.
How will she react next time she doesn't like what someone says?
Wtf? They were intimidating her and being aggressive, and to top it off he puts his hands on her! GTF.She seems to have anger issues and needs to be spoken to by the police.
How will she react next time she doesn't like what someone says?
edit...i see its probably fake so f
k it lolEdited by danllama on Wednesday 22 February 23:54
aka_kerrly said:
This strikes me as one of those engineered scenarios where a woman is giving a free pass and men are all meant to feel ashamed by the actions of the guys in the van.
If you reverse the situation so that say a couple of middle aged women in a 4x4 give a male cyclist a few "oi oi sexy/look at those legs/oo look at that ass in lycra" and he went an ripped the wing mirror off he would be branded a lunatic that should never be allowed out, there would be calls for criminal damage charges, women all over would argue that the aggressive behaviour of the man was way out of order and he should be proud to receive such attention for the opposite sex.
Leaving aside the likelihood that this video was staged, that would only be a valid argument if women weren't far more likely to be the victims of sexual assault than men. It's a false equivalence. If you reverse the situation so that say a couple of middle aged women in a 4x4 give a male cyclist a few "oi oi sexy/look at those legs/oo look at that ass in lycra" and he went an ripped the wing mirror off he would be branded a lunatic that should never be allowed out, there would be calls for criminal damage charges, women all over would argue that the aggressive behaviour of the man was way out of order and he should be proud to receive such attention for the opposite sex.
Women are on average less physically powerful than men and more likely to be assaulted or raped. A woman in the situation portrayed in the video might reasonably fear that catcalling and attempted grabbing could escalate into something much worse. A man in that situation wouldn't have that fear because that outcome is statistically highly unlikely.
As I man I don't feel shame at the actions of the occupants of that van because I'm not them and I don't behave that way. I do feel disgust however, and I would be horrified if any of the women in my life were subjected to that kind of behaviour.
I think the idea that those who highlight the poor behaviour of a minority of men "want all men to feel ashamed" is a straw man created by people who just don't think equality is terribly important. Nobody is saying that women should "get a free pass", but pretending that men and women are subject to exactly the same pressures in daily life is willful ignorance.
MajorMantra said:
Leaving aside the likelihood that this video was staged, that would only be a valid argument if women weren't far more likely to be the victims of sexual assault than men. It's a false equivalence.
I accept your points as I was very much playing devils advocate but is calling someone sexy and offering your number really sexual assault?!aka_kerrly said:
I accept your points as I was very much playing devils advocate but is calling someone sexy and offering your number really sexual assault?!
Not assault, no, it's harassment. And a women experiencing harassment of that type would not be unreasonable in fearing that it could escalate into actual sexual assault. It's easy to be complacent about these things as a man, but women are so much more likely to be the victims of sexual assault of one sort or another. We need to remember that when we assess their reaction to sexually aggressive advances.
If you want some statistics, look here: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105...
This is an important table:
Women report more than seven times the rate of sexual assault, and more than ten times the rate of "most serious" sexual offences. Even if you think men are under-reporting (and we don't know if they are or not), you have to concede that the differences are stark.
MajorMantra said:
Not assault, no, it's harassment. And a women experiencing harassment of that type would not be unreasonable in fearing that it could escalate into actual sexual assault.
It's easy to be complacent about these things as a man, but women are so much more likely to be the victims of sexual assault of one sort or another. We need to remember that when we assess their reaction to sexually aggressive advances.
If you want some statistics, look here: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105...
This is an important table:
Women report more than seven times the rate of sexual assault, and more than ten times the rate of "most serious" sexual offences. Even if you think men are under-reporting (and we don't know if they are or not), you have to concede that the differences are stark.
As you say it's about reportingIt's easy to be complacent about these things as a man, but women are so much more likely to be the victims of sexual assault of one sort or another. We need to remember that when we assess their reaction to sexually aggressive advances.
If you want some statistics, look here: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105...
This is an important table:
Women report more than seven times the rate of sexual assault, and more than ten times the rate of "most serious" sexual offences. Even if you think men are under-reporting (and we don't know if they are or not), you have to concede that the differences are stark.
Arent there figures somewhere for women over reporting and men under reporting
Similarly for figures asking teenagers if theyd had sex, men tended to over report and women under report, whereas in reality theyre probably about the same
Youve also got to take into account some of this is part of the dating game,
Many women like men to make the first approach,
How do they make that approach without the women who don't like it taking offence?
Actually its about women trying to make men think they make the first approach
Woman wears interesting outfit, man responds by saying how good she looks in it ( could be by wolf whistle)
Woman checks out man to see whether she thinks he's ok.
If he is she smiles, if not she breaks off his wing mirror ( or similar)
They should have realised 'no' was earlier
It can work the other way of course - it's quite a good video
Giraffes do it differently
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 23 February 23:34
VGTICE said:
NinjaPower said:
It simply isn't ok to harass a woman, or anyone in fact, the way that the Neanderthal in the van was doing.
People should be fully entitled to go about their lives without that kind of thing happening.
Whilst I generally don't agree with criminal damage or physical violence, there are portions of society that simply don't understand any form of punishment or retribution except those things. They are completely disinterested in what the police would have to say to them, or indeed anyone else.
If causing £1000 worth of damage is the only way to get these kind of primates to think twice about shouting out of their van window at women, then so be it.
Obviously this video is fake, but the reaction is what we're discussing here. We pay taxes that go towards this thing called police. Women or not there's no justification or place for illegal retribution . Most society would love to be able to dish out instant paybacks and since you're a biker I'm guessing you'd love to smash in windows of cars that do something silly that puts you at risk but you don't do this, do you. Although I wouldn't be surprised if you said that you do. People should be fully entitled to go about their lives without that kind of thing happening.
Whilst I generally don't agree with criminal damage or physical violence, there are portions of society that simply don't understand any form of punishment or retribution except those things. They are completely disinterested in what the police would have to say to them, or indeed anyone else.
If causing £1000 worth of damage is the only way to get these kind of primates to think twice about shouting out of their van window at women, then so be it.
The men are not idiots, they're actors.
The woman is not at risk of arrest for the damage, she's an actor.
saaby93 said:
As you say it's about reporting
Arent there figures somewhere for women over reporting and men under reporting
I didn't say "it's about reporting", I conceded that it's a factor. I don't know if there's any good data to adjust for this. However I do not believe that over/under-reporting could explain such huge differences in the rates of offences. That would entirely contradict my experience of the real world. Arent there figures somewhere for women over reporting and men under reporting
I know from talking to my female friends and colleagues, my girlfriend, my mother and my sister that women are subjected to minor acts of harassment on such a regular basis that's it's practically background noise. None of my male friends and acquaintances have this problem, and that's not by chance. It's different for women.
MajorMantra said:
saaby93 said:
As you say it's about reporting
Arent there figures somewhere for women over reporting and men under reporting
I didn't say "it's about reporting", I conceded that it's a factor. I don't know if there's any good data to adjust for this. However I do not believe that over/under-reporting could explain such huge differences in the rates of offences. That would entirely contradict my experience of the real world. Arent there figures somewhere for women over reporting and men under reporting
I know from talking to my female friends and colleagues, my girlfriend, my mother and my sister that women are subjected to minor acts of harassment on such a regular basis that's it's practically background noise. None of my male friends and acquaintances have this problem, and that's not by chance. It's different for women.
You have two ways of cycling to work, one where nothing happens, the other where you cycle past a building site. If a couple of the fit builders notice you and make suitable comment or whistle it can make your day first thing, so you choose that route by preference
On the other hand the same comment to a different woman or on a different day might be said to be harassment.
Where's the line and who's to know? If you say it has to stop there goes the lift that the first got from it.
One man's treasure is another's poison
It is generally different for men than women as that's how the game of life works
If equality sets in fully and we all strut our stuff and became equally obsessed by our appearance imagine how different the failydail would look
Which isnt to belittle harrassment when it happens ( by the fail or anyone)
Edited by saaby93 on Friday 24th February 19:19
^ have you considered that the stats are likely to be miles out because many men who have had unwanted advances, have been taken advantage of or made to feel it's best to not resist are too afraid to say anything because society believes that only women can be victims an only men can be forceful?
I'd imagine far too many men would happily take the piss out of a bloke who claimed a woman sexually assaulted them and many women would argue that "it isn't the same" when something happens to them!!
I'd imagine far too many men would happily take the piss out of a bloke who claimed a woman sexually assaulted them and many women would argue that "it isn't the same" when something happens to them!!
saaby93 said:
Where's the line and who's to know?
It's true, it's not always easy. But we can all try not to be dicks. Men are, on average, physically stronger than women which means that they're likely to succeed if they decide to commit an assault. That's a power imbalance that's inherent to the human race, and as I said above, it's the reason that minor harassment might be scary for a woman, but trivial to a man. aka_kerrly said:
^ have you considered that the stats are likely to be miles out because many men who have had unwanted advances, have been taken advantage of or made to feel it's best to not resist are too afraid to say anything because society believes that only women can be victims an only men can be forceful?
That may well be the case, but I don't believe it would skew the statistics as much as you are implying. VGTICE said:
Women or not there's no justification or place for illegal retribution .
Perhaps the law would be more proactive to address such problems if given a strong "deal with them before I do so myself" feedback loop.If I saw someone speaking to a woman like that and the end result was the same, my reaction would be of the "what did you think was going to happen?" variety.
Edit: That's not to say I don't think the law doesn't take this stuff seriously. I think they do. But if a woman wants to respond to that s
t in a way that makes those involved wish the police had turned up, I'm fine with that.Edited by InitialDave on Saturday 25th February 00:21
InitialDave said:
VGTICE said:
Women or not there's no justification or place for illegal retribution .
Perhaps the law would be more proactive to address such problems if given a strong "deal with them before I do so myself" feedback loop.If I saw someone speaking to a woman like that and the end result was the same, my reaction would be of the "what did you think was going to happen?" variety.
Edit: That's not to say I don't think the law doesn't take this stuff seriously. I think they do. But if a woman wants to respond to that s
t in a way that makes those involved wish the police had turned up, I'm fine with that.ker tt for not letting them cut me up would it be ok with you if I fk them up so that the next time they do it they think about it first? Or if someone breaks into my house can I fk them up too, since by following your logic if I do it they might think about it twice in the future. I'd love to be able to do that. Or is it not ok because I'm a white middleaged male, who as we know are responsible for all the bad things that happen in this world? Equality and that innit.VGTICE said:
If someone calls me a honkey knobhead wker tt for not letting them cut me up would it be ok with you if I fk them up so that the next time they do it they think about it first? Or if someone breaks into my house can I fk them up too, since by following your logic if I do it they might think about it twice in the future. I'd love to be able to do that.
We're talking about someone losing a door mirror, not having some random from the internet "fker tt for not letting them cut me up would it be ok with you if I fk them up so that the next time they do it they think about it first? Or if someone breaks into my house can I fk them up too, since by following your logic if I do it they might think about it twice in the future. I'd love to be able to do that.k them up". But if you will insist on playing that game, if someone deliberately antagonises complete strangers, they'll soon enough find someone who reacts badly to it, and I won't feel much sympathy for them when they do.In the second example, though, yes, absolutely. Someone breaks into your house, I have no issue with you removing them from it in as blunt a manner as you wish, and would want the official response to be "well, you're a silly boy for breaking in there, then, aren't you?".
VGTICE said:
Or is it not ok because I'm a white middleaged male, who as we know are responsible for all the bad things that happen in this world? Equality and that innit.
Oh, just ignore the idiots who come out with that stuff.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff