So I did buy some LingLong Ditchfinders

[Mr2Mike]

Barchettaman said:

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/ seems like a decent site for those of us more interested in test results than anecdotal ´evidence´.

There's more anecdotal evidence (in the form of user reviews) on that site than the whole of PH.

[TooMany2cvs]

M3333 said:

I put a set of Lasso on my e36 328i. ... Bridgestone make them I am told...

By the person that sold them to you?

He was wrong. They aren't. Lassa are a Turkish company, but they have been JV partners with Bridgestone since the '70s. Brisa, Lassa's parent, make some tyres for Bridgestone, but Bridgestone have seven of their own European factories, too. If you were going to say X make Y, it would be less inaccurate to say Lassa make Bridgestones, but still a long way from the reality.

[GC8]

wormus said:

I put Falken 452s on my 800hp Monaro a few years ago and they worked great initially...in the dry. Totally st when part worn and atrocious in the wet.

I have FK451s on my 944 and I was quite impressed with them. It is about 1/3rd of the output though.

[irocfan]

The flip of this - I had Pirelli Nero on my old Mustang - dangerous, hateful, hateful things

[brrapp]

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

pits said:

Wait till it rains it you need to do an emergency stop

Assuming he's driving sensibly and paying attention, it shouldn't be an issue.

^^^^This^^^^

My daily driver is an old Ford Ranger pickup, rear wheel drive most of the time and when the back is empty, it's lethal on wet or frosty roads. Even with top quality tyres, it's by far the worst/best vehicle I've driven for going sideways on roundabouts. I'm pretty sure it's far more dangerous than any modern car running the cheapest 'ditchfinders' available but I and many others drive vehicles like this on a daily basis and don't die more often then the rest of the population. We just (mostly) drive to suit the road/vehicle conditions.

[trickywoo]

irocfan said:

The flip of this - I had Pirelli Nero on my old Mustang - dangerous, hateful, hateful things

Yup. Pirelli make some crap tyres - P6000 (as well as some good ones.)

[Conscript]

brrapp said:

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

pits said:

Wait till it rains it you need to do an emergency stop

Assuming he's driving sensibly and paying attention, it shouldn't be an issue.

^^^^This^^^^

My daily driver is an old Ford Ranger pickup, rear wheel drive most of the time and when the back is empty, it's lethal on wet or frosty roads. Even with top quality tyres, it's by far the worst/best vehicle I've driven for going sideways on roundabouts. I'm pretty sure it's far more dangerous than any modern car running the cheapest 'ditchfinders' available but I and many others drive vehicles like this on a daily basis and don't die more often then the rest of the population. We just (mostly) drive to suit the road/vehicle conditions.

Surely the very definition of an "emergency" condition is one which exceeds normal driving conditions unexpectedly? Which can still happen, even when driving "sensibly and paying attention".

Stating that you just drive to suit the road/vehicle conditions and that you have been fine so far is a bit of a pointless thing to say in response, because by definition, you cannot account for emergencies. If you could, they wouldn't be emergencies.

Edited by Conscript on Thursday 23 February 09:26

[brrapp]

Conscript said:

brrapp said:

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

pits said:

Wait till it rains it you need to do an emergency stop

Assuming he's driving sensibly and paying attention, it shouldn't be an issue.

^^^^This^^^^

My daily driver is an old Ford Ranger pickup, rear wheel drive most of the time and when the back is empty, it's lethal on wet or frosty roads. Even with top quality tyres, it's by far the worst/best vehicle I've driven for going sideways on roundabouts. I'm pretty sure it's far more dangerous than any modern car running the cheapest 'ditchfinders' available but I and many others drive vehicles like this on a daily basis and don't die more often then the rest of the population. We just (mostly) drive to suit the road/vehicle conditions.

Surely the very definition of an "emergency" condition is one which exceeds normal driving conditions unexpectedly? Which can still happen, even when driving "sensibly and paying attention".

Stating that you just drive to suit the road/vehicle conditions is a bit of a pointless thing to say in response, because by definition, you cannot account for emergencies. If you could, they wouldn't be emergencies.

You drive at a speed that you will be able to stop within the limit of your vision. If you're driving a Golf R with 4wd, anti lock, traction control, brand new Continentals, round a blind corner with 60m clear road in sight, you drive at a speed that you can stop within 30m. If I'm driving my old pickup round the same corner in the opposite direction, I'll be driving at a speed that I can stop within the same distance. Our speeds may be different, but we are equally safe.

[Conscript]

brrapp said:

Conscript said:

brrapp said:

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

pits said:

Wait till it rains it you need to do an emergency stop

Assuming he's driving sensibly and paying attention, it shouldn't be an issue.

^^^^This^^^^

My daily driver is an old Ford Ranger pickup, rear wheel drive most of the time and when the back is empty, it's lethal on wet or frosty roads. Even with top quality tyres, it's by far the worst/best vehicle I've driven for going sideways on roundabouts. I'm pretty sure it's far more dangerous than any modern car running the cheapest 'ditchfinders' available but I and many others drive vehicles like this on a daily basis and don't die more often then the rest of the population. We just (mostly) drive to suit the road/vehicle conditions.

Surely the very definition of an "emergency" condition is one which exceeds normal driving conditions unexpectedly? Which can still happen, even when driving "sensibly and paying attention".

Stating that you just drive to suit the road/vehicle conditions is a bit of a pointless thing to say in response, because by definition, you cannot account for emergencies. If you could, they wouldn't be emergencies.

You drive at a speed that you will be able to stop within the limit of your vision. If you're driving a Golf R with 4wd, anti lock, traction control, brand new Continentals, round a blind corner with 60m clear road in sight, you drive at a speed that you can stop within 30m. If I'm driving my old pickup round the same corner in the opposite direction, I'll be driving at a speed that I can stop within the same distance. Our speeds may be different, but we are equally safe.

So would you drive at say, a maximum 5MPH through a residential street with cars parked on either side? Because that's exactly the sort of situation where, even if you are alert and driving sensibly and safely, a child is likely to run out after a ball from behind a large car, or a dog or something, well within the limit of your vision. And it's those emergencies where you really find out how well your car can stop.

Obviously even a car with good quality tyres might have trouble anchoring up in such a short distance. But the point is, the only way you could guarantee that you could account for such emergencies is to drive at a crawl everywhere, because that's the only way you can be sure that your car can come to a stop almost immediately.

I'm not really arguing about the merits of premium tyres here, just the commonly cited defence of budget tyres that "I don't need good tyres because I just drive a bit slower/I'm not racing around everywhere." Unless you are driving at a crawl everywhere, you are still going to be quite often driving at speeds where you are susceptible to an emergency situation. The difference in stopping distance between a budget tyre and a premium tyre might only be a few feet at these speeds, but even so, it could be enough to avoid a collision.

How much you are willing to pay to mitigate that risk is up to you of course, but please don't fall into the trap of believing that you are able to completely immunise yourself from situations where a better quality tyre might have helped, just by slowing down.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I've realised I've used "budget/premium" as synonyms for "poor quality/high quality" above. I am of course aware that it's not always that simple and that there are budget tyres which are good and similarly, premium branded tyres which are a bit crap. I personally try to buy good quality tyres, but I don't want people to think my opinion is born out of snobbishness.

Edited by Conscript on Thursday 23 February 10:00

[Barchettaman]

Mr2Mike said:

Barchettaman said:

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/ seems like a decent site for those of us more interested in test results than anecdotal ´evidence´.

There's more anecdotal evidence (in the form of user reviews) on that site than the whole of PH.

True, but they do a good job of assimilating the various tyre tests from across Europe. It seems a reasonable starting point when considering what tyres to get.

[KevinCamaroSS]

When I need tyres I sort the offerings by the Wet Grip rating. I then look at noise level/price/brand.

[MarJay]

I had Wanli tyres on an old BMW. They worked in the dry, they worked in the wet. However, when it was damp, foggy or anything in between completely wet and completely dry was lethal.

[brrapp]

Conscript said:

brrapp said:

Conscript said:

brrapp said:

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

pits said:

Wait till it rains it you need to do an emergency stop

Assuming he's driving sensibly and paying attention, it shouldn't be an issue.

^^^^This^^^^

My daily driver is an old Ford Ranger pickup, rear wheel drive most of the time and when the back is empty, it's lethal on wet or frosty roads. Even with top quality tyres, it's by far the worst/best vehicle I've driven for going sideways on roundabouts. I'm pretty sure it's far more dangerous than any modern car running the cheapest 'ditchfinders' available but I and many others drive vehicles like this on a daily basis and don't die more often then the rest of the population. We just (mostly) drive to suit the road/vehicle conditions.

Surely the very definition of an "emergency" condition is one which exceeds normal driving conditions unexpectedly? Which can still happen, even when driving "sensibly and paying attention".

Stating that you just drive to suit the road/vehicle conditions is a bit of a pointless thing to say in response, because by definition, you cannot account for emergencies. If you could, they wouldn't be emergencies.

You drive at a speed that you will be able to stop within the limit of your vision. If you're driving a Golf R with 4wd, anti lock, traction control, brand new Continentals, round a blind corner with 60m clear road in sight, you drive at a speed that you can stop within 30m. If I'm driving my old pickup round the same corner in the opposite direction, I'll be driving at a speed that I can stop within the same distance. Our speeds may be different, but we are equally safe.

So would you drive at say, a maximum 5MPH through a residential street with cars parked on either side? Because that's exactly the sort of situation where, even if you are alert and driving sensibly and safely, a child is likely to run out after a ball from behind a large car, or a dog or something, well within the limit of your vision. And it's those emergencies where you really find out how well your car can stop.

Obviously even a car with good quality tyres might have trouble anchoring up in such a short distance. But the point is, the only way you could guarantee that you could account for such emergencies is to drive at a crawl everywhere, because that's the only way you can be sure that your car can come to a stop almost immediately.

I'm not really arguing about the merits of premium tyres here, just the commonly cited defence of budget tyres that "I don't need good tyres because I just drive a bit slower/I'm not racing around everywhere." Unless you are driving at a crawl everywhere, you are still going to be quite often driving at speeds where you are susceptible to an emergency situation. The difference in stopping distance between a budget tyre and a premium tyre might only be a few feet at these speeds, but even so, it could be enough to avoid a collision.

How much you are willing to pay to mitigate that risk is up to you of course, but please don't fall into the trap of believing that you are able to completely immunise yourself from situations where a better quality tyre might have helped, just by slowing down.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I've realised I've used "budget/premium" as synonyms for "poor quality/high quality" above. I am of course aware that it's not always that simple and that there are budget tyres which are good and similarly, premium branded tyres which are a bit crap. I personally try to buy good quality tyres, but I don't want people to think my opinion is born out of snobbishness.

Edited by Conscript on Thursday 23 February 10:00

I understand exactly what you are saying and agree to an extent, but in the long list of things that can contribute to an accident, while tyre choice will have a small part to play,I don't think that it is at all significant.

If you look at top athletes all competing at similar levels of skill and fitness, the tiniest thing such as the length of shoelaces or the exact composition of their breakfast will have an effect on winning a medal or not. If you look at the average guy going for a jog around the park, there are far more significant factors involved.

Exactly the same as tyre choice in cars, for supercars being driven to the max by expert drivers, tyre choice will make a significant difference. For Joe Public taking a run down to the local supermarket, driver observation, alertness, type of car, weather conditions, condition of brakes, road surfaces, and even wear levels on tyres, are all far more significant than choice of tyre manufacturer.

[Jefferson Steelflex]

MarJay said:

I had Wanli tyres on an old BMW. They worked in the dry, they worked in the wet. However, when it was damp, foggy or anything in between completely wet and completely dry was lethal.

I was just trying to think of the brand I found on the old E38 728i I bought a few years back....Wanli.

I was always a massive sceptic on tyres, until I found myself facing the wrong way on a busy roundabout and almost getting mashed by other road users. Maybe this would have happened in a decent set of tyres, and it was just bad luck, but from the day I fitted some new Pirelli's (which were recommended for my specific model), the handling, road noise and general feeling of safety was night and day compared to the Chinese ditchfinders.

IMO it's a massive false economy on even the most basic of cars, when a decent set of mid-rangers like Uniroyal, Kumho or Falken can be picked up for only £20 a corner more.

[TurboHatchback]

I've bought various cars that had ditchfinders fitted (some even with main dealer receipts!), they were all st to different degrees. The difference compared to top quality tyres is immense, doubly so in the wet. Yes you can drive to the conditions but in the wet that would be <1/2 the speed safely possible with a quality Michelin or similar, I don't want to crawl along at 25mph just because it's raining.

Now I will only have my cars fitted with top quality premium tyres, preferably Michelin, Goodyear or Bridgestone. If it comes with brand new ditchfinders they will be binned and replaced with proper tyres, I factor this into the purchase price. The difference in price in negligible compared to the potential cost of an accident, the value of my life or even just my time.

[Agent XXX]

Why the need to ad 'So' to everything?

[Davey S2]

I'd never stick really cheap unheard of tyres on my car but changed the Pirelli run flats on my old 320 for non run flat Hankooks and they were far better all round.

[otolith]

alex290568 said:

I'm sorry in advance for this post but I've done 170,000 miles in my E class 320 on budget tyres over the last 4 years.
I've never had an accident, never lost control never killed anyone and I am far from a slow driver.

Hmm, my E320CDI came with Maxtreks on the back and Evergreens on the front, and they are crap. I'm booking it in today for some proper rubber.

[eztiger328]

GC8 said:

I have FK451s on my 944 and I was quite impressed with them. It is about 1/3rd of the output though.

I've had the FK452's on my car, very good tyres but they are Falken so super soft and wear out quickly when compared to the likes of Michelin and Conti, but at the price you pay for them you shouldnt really be surprised. Same as Toyo in that respect.

When you get down to about 2mm tread though they do start to get sketchy in the wet.

With regard to the chinese ditch finders they are only suited to small low powered light city cars imo. The horrendous braking distances i've seen them score in tyre tests is shocking.

[fivepointnine]

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

Assuming he's driving sensibly and paying attention, it shouldn't be an issue.

We cannot utilize common sense on PH how dare you! Don't you know that if it is raining, you drive the exact same speed around corners as the dry? All while warming up for this weekends track day?

On a serious not though, I have shockingly expensive Bridgestones on my 350bhp RWD car and they are horrible in all conditions, I am pretty sure Maxxis tyres would be an improvement.