2WD is better in the snow than 4WD - what ?!

2WD is better in the snow than 4WD - what ?!

Author
Discussion

cml24

1,410 posts

146 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
ian2144 said:
With over 45 years driving experience two of the best cars in the snow by far were the Citroen 2CV and a VW Beetle 1300 on skinny cross ply tyres. Most modern car tyres are far to wide to work well in snow.
This. 100%.

Much easier to stop and steer, and even go in a lightweight 80's fiesta with 145 or 155 section tyres than even a new fiesta with 195 or 205 section tyres. I don't reckon older tyres were so summer only orientated either, even if they weren't actually all season or winter tyres.

My old mini with 145 section snow (not just winter) tyres was fantastic! Far better at driving on a few inches of snow than the land cruiser I currently have (supplied with additional winter equipment for the Russian market and summer only tyres.... how does that make sense?), which is far too heavy to drive quickly on snow in my opinion.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
cml24 said:
ian2144 said:
With over 45 years driving experience two of the best cars in the snow by far were the Citroen 2CV and a VW Beetle 1300 on skinny cross ply tyres. Most modern car tyres are far to wide to work well in snow.
This. 100%.

Much easier to stop and steer, and even go in a lightweight 80's fiesta with 145 or 155 section tyres than even a new fiesta with 195 or 205 section tyres. I don't reckon older tyres were so summer only orientated either, even if they weren't actually all season or winter tyres.

My old mini with 145 section snow (not just winter) tyres was fantastic! Far better at driving on a few inches of snow than the land cruiser I currently have (supplied with additional winter equipment for the Russian market and summer only tyres.... how does that make sense?), which is far too heavy to drive quickly on snow in my opinion.
yes If you check out photos of the snowy rallies, such as Sweden for example, the cars run on tiny little tyres.

As you rightly say, this is the issue with a lot of modern cars. BMWs and Mercs frequently come with powerful engines and massive great tyres to cope, which makes them hopeless in the snow. My 3 series on standard 16s is fine.

The worst car I've ever owned in the snow was actually my only 4WD car, a Celica Carlos Sainz - it just skimmed over the surface of the snow.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
Plus don't forget that traditionally Volvos were FE/RWD, and they're Swedish...
Did anybody just say Saab...?

Anyway, Volvo haven't built a RWD car for two decades, and haven't launched a newly-designed RWD car for 35 years.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
RobM77 said:
Plus don't forget that traditionally Volvos were FE/RWD, and they're Swedish...
Did anybody just say Saab...?

Anyway, Volvo haven't built a RWD car for two decades, and haven't launched a newly-designed RWD car for 35 years.
Well, if anything it was snowier in the 70s and 80s than it is now! biggrin My point was simply that 4x4s do not tend to originate from snowy climates. Volvo are Swedish, BMW are Bavarian etc - all very snowy areas, but those are traditionally 2WD companies. The reason is that the natural environment for a 4x4 is off road - i.e. rocks, boulders, rivers, mud etc, rather than driving to the supermarket on a snowy road.

ETA: 4WD is better in snow, obviously. All I'm saying is that it's not essential. It's presence in normal everyday road cars is mainly down to marketing - Porsche actually openly admitted that when the Carrera 4 was first introduced.

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 23 February 11:21

Mound Dawg

1,915 posts

173 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
RWD is far better in snow than 4WD in one important respect. Bunking off work.

Ring ring "Hi boss, Dawg here, I won't be in today, it's snowed and the car's stuck. See you when it melts".

james_gt3rs

4,816 posts

190 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Mound Dawg said:
RWD is far better in snow than 4WD in one important respect. Bunking off work.

Ring ring "Hi boss, Dawg here, I won't be in today, it's snowed and the car's stuck. See you when it melts".
hehe

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Nanook said:
kambites said:
With a really trivial 4wd system I suppose it might just about be true - a 2wd car with an open diff will lose drive if any one of two wheels loses traction; a 4wd car with open diffs will lose drive if any one of four wheels loses traction.

I can't see it being true very often though, especially with modern systems which tend to at least use the brakes to limit slip.
Entirely true, but I've had a few 4x4s, and I've never owned, or even seen, one with 3 open differentials.
It's the normal mode of operation of almost every permanent 4x4. If the centre diff was permanently locked (like on, say, an old Series Landy in 4wd), then you'd get serious transmission wind-up in short order.

So it's more of a question of a 4wd with no lockable diffs. And that's quite a few now. It's all left to the TC electronics to put the lid on a single spinning wheel. A lot of Discoveries do that, for a start.

ian2144

1,662 posts

221 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Four wheel drive does not guarantee your ability to go anywhere, but it does help. Having said that I've gone places with a 2CV a Defender failed ....!

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
ian2144 said:
Four wheel drive does not guarantee your ability to go anywhere, but it does help. Having said that I've gone places with a 2CV a Defender failed ....!
That's a surprise biggrin What was the situation and the reasons? I'm not a particular fan or a hater of either car, I'm just curious. smile

monthefish

20,439 posts

230 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
kambites said:
With a really trivial 4wd system I suppose it might just about be true - a 2wd car with an open diff will lose drive if any one of two wheels loses traction; a 4wd car with open diffs will lose drive if any one of four wheels loses traction.
..but the 2WD car never had drive on the non-driven wheels. How is that better?

Balmoral

40,660 posts

247 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
ian2144 said:
I've gone places with a 2CV a Defender failed ....!
A very long time ago, a friend of mine pulled a Range Rover out of a ditch in Epping Forest with a 2CV, they had tried to go where we had gone, and failed hehe.

I think the 2CV is one of the worlds greatest unsung off roaders.

DonkeyApple

54,927 posts

168 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
ian2144 said:
Four wheel drive does not guarantee your ability to go anywhere, but it does help. Having said that I've gone places with a 2CV a Defender failed ....!
That's a surprise biggrin What was the situation and the reasons? I'm not a particular fan or a hater of either car, I'm just curious. smile
A Socialist Worker meet? smile

The 2CV is a fantastic car for some crappy conditions, especially due to those very narrow tyres. So was the Renault 4. It's also so light so even if it does get stuck it's a lot easier to push or carry. I can easily imagine it managing some conditions better than a Defender that's been stuck on trendy tyres?

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
RobM77 said:
ian2144 said:
Four wheel drive does not guarantee your ability to go anywhere, but it does help. Having said that I've gone places with a 2CV a Defender failed ....!
That's a surprise biggrin What was the situation and the reasons? I'm not a particular fan or a hater of either car, I'm just curious. smile
A Socialist Worker meet? smile

The 2CV is a fantastic car for some crappy conditions, especially due to those very narrow tyres. So was the Renault 4. It's also so light so even if it does get stuck it's a lot easier to push or carry. I can easily imagine it managing some conditions better than a Defender that's been stuck on trendy tyres?
We used to have one of these...
http://www.barbour4x4.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ6mnZX6ju4

brrapp

3,701 posts

161 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
A Socialist Worker meet? smile

The 2CV is a fantastic car for some crappy conditions, especially due to those very narrow tyres. So was the Renault 4. It's also so light so even if it does get stuck it's a lot easier to push or carry. I can easily imagine it managing some conditions better than a Defender that's been stuck on trendy tyres?
The 2cv tyres have a very round profile similar to a bike tyre. In soft snow they cut down into the snow giving grip to the sides as well as the footprint. It does also mean that they have less of a footprint on a hard surface though.

ian2144

1,662 posts

221 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
ian2144 said:
Four wheel drive does not guarantee your ability to go anywhere, but it does help. Having said that I've gone places with a 2CV a Defender failed ....!
That's a surprise biggrin What was the situation and the reasons? I'm not a particular fan or a hater of either car, I'm just curious. smile
I was in a quarry at the time, and managed to get my 2CV through a field that had been untouched for years. Quarry Forman thought he would do the same in the works Landy. Unfortunately for him the landy broke through the surface and sunk to its axles, I had to drag said landy out with the digger ..!

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
monthefish said:
kambites said:
With a really trivial 4wd system I suppose it might just about be true - a 2wd car with an open diff will lose drive if any one of two wheels loses traction; a 4wd car with open diffs will lose drive if any one of four wheels loses traction.
..but the 2WD car never had drive on the non-driven wheels. How is that better?
With a fwd car, if your rear wheels have no grip the engine will still turn the front wheels. With a 4wd car with three open diffs, it will not.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Nanook said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It's the normal mode of operation of almost every permanent 4x4. If the centre diff was permanently locked (like on, say, an old Series Landy in 4wd), then you'd get serious transmission wind-up in short order.

So it's more of a question of a 4wd with no lockable diffs. And that's quite a few now. It's all left to the TC electronics to put the lid on a single spinning wheel. A lot of Discoveries do that, for a start.
Fair enough, when you say 'normal mode' though, they all have a switch/lever/stick to change that. One of my Shoguns was open all round in 4WD, if you took it out of 2WD, which was normally what you'd use on a paved surface, and didn't elect to lock either the centre of rear diff, which was a feature.
Yep, same with my old Shagged'un v6.
Normal 2wd - then 4H, 4Hlc, 4Llc
lc = locked centre, H/L = high/low range. Basically, similar to the Series 3 I've got now, but that doesn't have "4H non-lc". Or any power. Or space. But it does have a similar thirst.

Nanook said:
Chances are, if you have a 4WD car and you get stuck in the snow because you're driving round with all the diffs open, you deserve it for not knowing how your car works!
Which applies to everything everywhere, of course...

996TT02

3,308 posts

139 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
BUT... even with open diffs, there is still less likelyhood of losing traction, because the torque (before any slip) is distributed (and hence reduced, per wheel) between 4 and not 2 wheels, so 4wd is still better.

matchmaker

8,463 posts

199 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Harji said:
I drove a BMW 320d one snowy winter with winter tyres. I had no problem with snow or ice.
I had a BMW 323i on 4 studded winter tyres. I then had a Cavalier 4x4 on bog standard tyres. In snow the BMW wouldn't have been able to go where the Cavalier went.

CABC

5,533 posts

100 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
matchmaker said:
I had a BMW 323i on 4 studded winter tyres. I then had a Cavalier 4x4 on bog standard tyres. In snow the BMW wouldn't have been able to go where the Cavalier went.
You've added another dimension there.
4x4 normal tyres vs bmw on winters, bmw wins in snow.
I have no experience of studs. Obviously they're intended for Nordic regions where roads have a layer of winter ice on them. Studs may well just rotate right through snow. Do studs normally get fitted to siped tyres? Do some Nordic drivers have 3 tyres? Studded, winter & summer?