The death of the slow car
Discussion
I remember the feeling of power I got when I stepped into my first BMW, a 328i E46 in 1999. That had c190bhp, the BMW motorbike that I bought in 2010, only 11 years later had 193bhp.
Everything's got faster and more powerful, apart from the absolute bottom of the range in each model, which I'm convinced are only there so that nobody buys them.
Everything's got faster and more powerful, apart from the absolute bottom of the range in each model, which I'm convinced are only there so that nobody buys them.
Good call on the quality of pretty much all every day cars now. This also goes to show that things do move on... Things get better, faster, more efficient and more reliable.
And come on chaps, of course you can use 100bhp+ per bloody ton on the roads. There is a time and a place for it, but there are still plenty of places.
And come on chaps, of course you can use 100bhp+ per bloody ton on the roads. There is a time and a place for it, but there are still plenty of places.
Yipper said:
To some degree, but not completely, speed is commoditising. Tech today is so good, so cheap, and so widely available. You can spend ~£40k on a Golf R and a remap and make it as fast as a ~£240k Ferrari F12. And still do the B&Q run in it. The gap between supercars and everyday cars is closing faster than ever.
You *cannot* be serious!
A remapped Golf R is a fast as an F12?
Right. Got you.
LOL
I think it is because of the desperate need to have 'premium' and 'better than the neighbours'. Even non petrol heads see their cars as something to show off (mainly because it's a premium brand with blingy bits and bit alloys). Combine the desire with the mass access to finance and hey presto, supply and demand.
That and diesel torque making cars feel faster with less effort needed and autoboxes taking the effort out of it.
That and diesel torque making cars feel faster with less effort needed and autoboxes taking the effort out of it.
There are tonnes of slow cars around.
Ford Fiesta 16.9s http://premierford.co.uk/pdfs/cars/fiesta.pdf
Fiat Qubo 15.2s http://sr3.perrys.co.uk/site-custom/assets/pdfs/ne...
Must be plenty more.
Ford Fiesta 16.9s http://premierford.co.uk/pdfs/cars/fiesta.pdf
Fiat Qubo 15.2s http://sr3.perrys.co.uk/site-custom/assets/pdfs/ne...
Must be plenty more.
I do wonder if turbocharging and its power delivery is a contributing factor.
As has been mentioned, more and more cars are being turbocharged. The last two cars I owned over a combined period of four years (yep, the wisened voice of experience here) were turbocharged and I found it easier to accelerate quickly in those than I do in my current, supercharged, car.
In fact when I initially got this car I was driving to work and was a tiny bit disappointed at how "slow" it was. The turbocharged Saabs could deliver pretty decent acceleration with not much throttle movement, due to the torque curve and throttle map. I soon learned that one just has to be a bit more willing with the revs in the supercharged car.
Also, 8 and 9 speed gearboxes are relatively common now. A hypothetical 530d with an 8spd 'box can stay in the optimum rev range for power and torque for, I would imagine, enough time to accelerate beyond any speed limit in the UK. Against an identical car with a 5spd 'box (for example) I would think the former would accelerate noticeably quicker.
As has been mentioned, more and more cars are being turbocharged. The last two cars I owned over a combined period of four years (yep, the wisened voice of experience here) were turbocharged and I found it easier to accelerate quickly in those than I do in my current, supercharged, car.
In fact when I initially got this car I was driving to work and was a tiny bit disappointed at how "slow" it was. The turbocharged Saabs could deliver pretty decent acceleration with not much throttle movement, due to the torque curve and throttle map. I soon learned that one just has to be a bit more willing with the revs in the supercharged car.
Also, 8 and 9 speed gearboxes are relatively common now. A hypothetical 530d with an 8spd 'box can stay in the optimum rev range for power and torque for, I would imagine, enough time to accelerate beyond any speed limit in the UK. Against an identical car with a 5spd 'box (for example) I would think the former would accelerate noticeably quicker.
TheJimi said:
Yipper said:
To some degree, but not completely, speed is commoditising. Tech today is so good, so cheap, and so widely available. You can spend ~£40k on a Golf R and a remap and make it as fast as a ~£240k Ferrari F12. And still do the B&Q run in it. The gap between supercars and everyday cars is closing faster than ever.
You *cannot* be serious!
A remapped Golf R is a fast as an F12?
Right. Got you.
LOL
V10Ace said:
TheJimi said:
Yipper said:
To some degree, but not completely, speed is commoditising. Tech today is so good, so cheap, and so widely available. You can spend ~£40k on a Golf R and a remap and make it as fast as a ~£240k Ferrari F12. And still do the B&Q run in it. The gap between supercars and everyday cars is closing faster than ever.
You *cannot* be serious!
A remapped Golf R is a fast as an F12?
Right. Got you.
LOL
- Golf R remapped 10.8 seconds on quarter mile (cost ~£40k):
- Ferrari F12 10.9 seconds on quarter mile (cost ~£240k):
Happy to help update your knowledge further
Had a brief shot of my grandads new pride and joy today. A'14 Qashqai 1.2 petrol. My first though upon jumping in was that it was going to be an utter shopping cart, 0-60 in 16-17 seconds like an old Disco, nearing top speed at motorway 70 etc with floppy handling etc etc.
Honestly I can say I was pleasantly surprised. Sits at 60 on a reasonable B Road, requires a downshift for the steep bits, but so does most 'normal' hatchbacks. Steering is not the best but no worse than a 10-15 year old Astra. Looked up some specs after, 0-60 in 11s. Somehow it only weighed 1300kg, the same as most hatchbacks.
He loves it, can't say I really disagree, especially considering these small engined SUVs are considered the slow side of normal nowadays.
Honestly I can say I was pleasantly surprised. Sits at 60 on a reasonable B Road, requires a downshift for the steep bits, but so does most 'normal' hatchbacks. Steering is not the best but no worse than a 10-15 year old Astra. Looked up some specs after, 0-60 in 11s. Somehow it only weighed 1300kg, the same as most hatchbacks.
He loves it, can't say I really disagree, especially considering these small engined SUVs are considered the slow side of normal nowadays.
Yipper said:
- Golf R remapped 10.8 seconds on quarter mile (cost ~£40k):
- Ferrari F12 10.9 seconds on quarter mile (cost ~£240k):
Happy to help update your knowledge further
F12 is a stunning piece of kit
Golf R doing 10.8 on the 1/4 is a fun pub fact no more
Yipper said:
V10Ace said:
TheJimi said:
Yipper said:
To some degree, but not completely, speed is commoditising. Tech today is so good, so cheap, and so widely available. You can spend ~£40k on a Golf R and a remap and make it as fast as a ~£240k Ferrari F12. And still do the B&Q run in it. The gap between supercars and everyday cars is closing faster than ever.
You *cannot* be serious!
A remapped Golf R is a fast as an F12?
Right. Got you.
LOL
- Golf R remapped 10.8 seconds on quarter mile (cost ~£40k):
- Ferrari F12 10.9 seconds on quarter mile (cost ~£240k):
Happy to help update your knowledge further
That particular Stage 3+ state of tune apparently runs a bigger turbo, beefed up internals and DSG parts being uprated also.
However for the sake of argument, yes - it did go quicker than an F12 over a 1/4 mile. In that particular comparison
.caelite said:
He loves it, can't say I really disagree, especially considering these small engined SUVs are considered the slow side of normal nowadays.
Well that may be because they are the dismal side of normal! My 2002 E46 325ti Compact is quoted as doing 0-62 in 7 seconds - no wonder all these under-engined bean cans are always getting in my way!
Yipper said:
V10Ace said:
TheJimi said:
Yipper said:
To some degree, but not completely, speed is commoditising. Tech today is so good, so cheap, and so widely available. You can spend ~£40k on a Golf R and a remap and make it as fast as a ~£240k Ferrari F12. And still do the B&Q run in it. The gap between supercars and everyday cars is closing faster than ever.
You *cannot* be serious!
A remapped Golf R is a fast as an F12?
Right. Got you.
LOL
- Golf R remapped 10.8 seconds on quarter mile (cost ~£40k):
Happy to help update your knowledge further
Mapped Golfs, Teslas, as fast as 'x' supercar, Jesus wept. It's as if the entire history of the automobile has been wiped off the planet and a new reality, one written by sales reps and 17 year olds ? The point which always seems to be missed is that there's so much more to a car than straightline speed. OT but it makes me itch when I see dull everyday transport compared favourably, by folk apparently into cars, to supercars.
Yipper said:
V10Ace said:
TheJimi said:
Yipper said:
To some degree, but not completely, speed is commoditising. Tech today is so good, so cheap, and so widely available. You can spend ~£40k on a Golf R and a remap and make it as fast as a ~£240k Ferrari F12. And still do the B&Q run in it. The gap between supercars and everyday cars is closing faster than ever.
You *cannot* be serious!
A remapped Golf R is a fast as an F12?
Right. Got you.
LOL
- Golf R remapped 10.8 seconds on quarter mile (cost ~£40k):
- Ferrari F12 10.9 seconds on quarter mile (cost ~£240k):
Happy to help update your knowledge further
I know where the OP is coming from but I disagree, modern 'boring' cars are faster than they used to be but in terms of raw performance it's pretty modest, maybe 20% in the last 30 years. Certainly my old mk1 Focus 1.6, roughly equivalent to the OP's car still had more or less 100bhp/tonne and hit 60 in about 10 seconds.
I think the only difference is in the usability of performance, modern top end stuff has become so fast that it's difficult to use, but the ordinary stuff with monster bottom end and auto gearboxes has become much easier, so you end up in a situation where the two seem to have come together but in reality given a straight and clear enough bit of road the gap is at least as large as it ever was.
The biggest difference IMHO is 4x4's, even 12-13 years ago they were all slow without exception, even compared to regular cars. Now even the slowest full sized ones are probably faster than a typical Focus.
I think the frustrating thing for the car enthusiast is once upon a time you could enjoy regularly thrashing a 100+bhp/ton car whilst also enjoying being able to easily dispatch the rest of the mundano boxes without doing stupid speed. Whereas now you have to go to mega power to hold a significant advantage which has three major drawbacks:
1. Performance is a case of diminishing returns, largely due to air resistance being proportional to velocity squared. So for every doubling of power (at the great expense of fuel economy and traction off the line etc), you only get around half the benefit to performance.
2. A car setup for much higher performance has to have wider tyres, more stable suspension set up for high speed etc. and this makes the car feel very inert at the relatively much lower speeds of driving within the law.
3. A lot of enjoyment from driving a car comes from feeling like you're really working it and this becomes a very rare opportunity on such a high performance car.
With mundano boxes being relatively quick a lot of us are facing the dilema of whether to accept our demotion to 'average person pace' to carry on just enjoying the fun aspect or to maintain our pace advantage at the price of fun and a fair chunk of extra cash to run a significantly quicker car.
1. Performance is a case of diminishing returns, largely due to air resistance being proportional to velocity squared. So for every doubling of power (at the great expense of fuel economy and traction off the line etc), you only get around half the benefit to performance.
2. A car setup for much higher performance has to have wider tyres, more stable suspension set up for high speed etc. and this makes the car feel very inert at the relatively much lower speeds of driving within the law.
3. A lot of enjoyment from driving a car comes from feeling like you're really working it and this becomes a very rare opportunity on such a high performance car.
With mundano boxes being relatively quick a lot of us are facing the dilema of whether to accept our demotion to 'average person pace' to carry on just enjoying the fun aspect or to maintain our pace advantage at the price of fun and a fair chunk of extra cash to run a significantly quicker car.
RBH58 said:
My cars are getting slower. I've gone from a 2011 Megane RS250 Cup to a 2014 BRZ to a 2017 2.0 MX5 RF. I'm doing my bit for slow cars.
I've done something similar, how are you finding said transition out of interest?RBH58 said:
My cars are getting slower. I've gone from a 2011 Megane RS250 Cup to a 2014 BRZ to a 2017 2.0 MX5 RF. I'm doing my bit for slow cars.
And I'd be willing to bet you probably have more fun now? I've gone from a 288 bhp Z4 Coupe to a 138 bhp MR2 and the latter is way more fun, in part, because you can thrash the balls off the MR2 a lot more regularly; although I'm not convinced it would be any slower on a bendy road.VeeFource said:
With mundano boxes being relatively quick a lot of us are facing the dilema of whether to accept our demotion to 'average person pace' to carry on just enjoying the fun aspect or to maintain our pace advantage at the price of fun and a fair chunk of extra cash to run a significantly quicker car.
Good post ^^ I for one couldn't give a monkeys about whether I'm the fastest on the road as long as I'm having fun. I dare say those with Lotus Elises with only 118 bhp wouldn't go out and buy a remapped Golf R on the premise its faster than a Ferrari Edited by TameRacingDriver on Friday 24th February 09:12
Rich1973 said:
When I was a youngster, I remember vividly a Rover SD1 Vitesse coming round a reasonably sharp right hander and then accelerating hard. It sounded fabulous and was the first car I had ever seen visibly accelerate. Was the mid 80's and I can still picture it.
NiceI still remember a 3.3 930 flipping into a drift around a wet bend, to this day I'm not sure if he was a driving God, or just was lucky not to stuff it when showing off.
Always wanted an 80's 911 and got one, but unfortunately not a 930.
Trouble with fast modern cars is, they are so well engineered and drivers so cosseted, that they don't feel fast.
something like a sunbeam Ti or manta GTE only 100 ish hp, but felt faster as they are loud, bouncy and slidy.
Can't go back though.
So buy a classic and don't worry that your not the faster on the block, but you maybe the coolest
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