The death of the slow car
Discussion
5 years ago when I had my first Fabia vRS, which I dyno'd at 140, I was probably up there with the quickest things in my carpark at work. (Which really doesn't say much about the quality of cars at my work)
Now, another Fabia vRS 5 years later, and I'd say I'm well down on performance. There are new people carriers in the carpark that would give me a run for my money, never mind the new Fiesta STs. Things seem to have moved on quick, worst thing them bloody ST's do about the same MPG as my diesel when I'm trying to keep up.
Now, another Fabia vRS 5 years later, and I'd say I'm well down on performance. There are new people carriers in the carpark that would give me a run for my money, never mind the new Fiesta STs. Things seem to have moved on quick, worst thing them bloody ST's do about the same MPG as my diesel when I'm trying to keep up.
The Wookie said:
All that does is demonstrate the advantage of 4wd from a standing start. Even nearly 20 years ago it would have been a remapped Mitsubishi Evo giving a Ferrari 550 a fright in the same situation.
I know where the OP is coming from but I disagree, modern 'boring' cars are faster than they used to be but in terms of raw performance it's pretty modest, maybe 20% in the last 30 years. Certainly my old mk1 Focus 1.6, roughly equivalent to the OP's car still had more or less 100bhp/tonne and hit 60 in about 10 seconds.
I think the only difference is in the usability of performance, modern top end stuff has become so fast that it's difficult to use, but the ordinary stuff with monster bottom end and auto gearboxes has become much easier, so you end up in a situation where the two seem to have come together but in reality given a straight and clear enough bit of road the gap is at least as large as it ever was.
The biggest difference IMHO is 4x4's, even 12-13 years ago they were all slow without exception, even compared to regular cars. Now even the slowest full sized ones are probably faster than a typical Focus.
I think It's frightening to see how rapid everyday cars are getting (and I'm 24) .. A Golf R for example with a lighting fast DSG box and Haldex can give serious weaponry a run for its money in the real world.. maybe not on a 2 miles straight.I know where the OP is coming from but I disagree, modern 'boring' cars are faster than they used to be but in terms of raw performance it's pretty modest, maybe 20% in the last 30 years. Certainly my old mk1 Focus 1.6, roughly equivalent to the OP's car still had more or less 100bhp/tonne and hit 60 in about 10 seconds.
I think the only difference is in the usability of performance, modern top end stuff has become so fast that it's difficult to use, but the ordinary stuff with monster bottom end and auto gearboxes has become much easier, so you end up in a situation where the two seem to have come together but in reality given a straight and clear enough bit of road the gap is at least as large as it ever was.
The biggest difference IMHO is 4x4's, even 12-13 years ago they were all slow without exception, even compared to regular cars. Now even the slowest full sized ones are probably faster than a typical Focus.
I was amazed to see how quick my M240i was in comparison to my Dad's 10 year old F430, the combination of Pilot Supersports, quick gearbox and 500nm of torque mean you have to be driving like a loony to prove a point.
The thing with most supercars is they are so large, and powerful (to separate them from hyper hatches etc) they are actually pointless on the road. In fact most owners can't and don't want to drive them much quicker than your average hyper hatch than does 0, to no licence territory in 10 seconds!
The fastest thing I ever owned was a Mk2 Escort RS, fully rally prepared, Neil Brown BDG, about 4 and a gnat's seconds to 60, which in the 70s was effing quick regardless. Still is really though Simon McKinley's version, albeit not a BDG gets there in low 3's due to not having to make a shift. Sorry I digress.
Nowadays I don't have a toy car, no time to do it justice, but keep thinking about it. It would be a classic, no question, something to feel really involved. Such are the way things have gone that, as others have observed, modern cars are so competent they have become dull(ish) on open roads unless you want to explore illegality.
So I've gone slower, and these days bumble about in either a diesel auto SUV, or a 1.4 68bhp 15 year old snotter hatchback. Neither are quick, though the SUV isn't far off the 60 time of the Mk1 Lotus Cortina we had for a while. Having said that, ignoring dual carriageways and motorways, on NSL roads it isn't very often that I have someone looking for the overtake, but if there is someone clearly wanting to go quicker then they are facilitated in getting by.
It always amuses me when people on PH bang on about dangerously slow cars, there are no longer such things in common circulation, dangerously slow drivers, yes. It's all about application, hell even used to overtake stuff in my old 1600cc single port VW camper van, though it did need fair bit of planning.
Nowadays I don't have a toy car, no time to do it justice, but keep thinking about it. It would be a classic, no question, something to feel really involved. Such are the way things have gone that, as others have observed, modern cars are so competent they have become dull(ish) on open roads unless you want to explore illegality.
So I've gone slower, and these days bumble about in either a diesel auto SUV, or a 1.4 68bhp 15 year old snotter hatchback. Neither are quick, though the SUV isn't far off the 60 time of the Mk1 Lotus Cortina we had for a while. Having said that, ignoring dual carriageways and motorways, on NSL roads it isn't very often that I have someone looking for the overtake, but if there is someone clearly wanting to go quicker then they are facilitated in getting by.
It always amuses me when people on PH bang on about dangerously slow cars, there are no longer such things in common circulation, dangerously slow drivers, yes. It's all about application, hell even used to overtake stuff in my old 1600cc single port VW camper van, though it did need fair bit of planning.
I haven't read the full thread but I'm guessing you have a 1.8 Civic? If so, it will feel slow because you have to rev the balls of it to get near that 138bhp. Plus the fact it's not actually very fast anyway, yeah.
I have one and I'm looking for something new and turbocharged. May or may not be for the above reasons.
I have one and I'm looking for something new and turbocharged. May or may not be for the above reasons.
shielsy said:
And come on chaps, of course you can use 100bhp+ per bloody ton on the roads. There is a time and a place for it, but there are still plenty of places.
There is the occasional moment but it makes a minuscule difference. Say you come off a roundabout at 30mph and floor it up to 70mph, in a 100bhp/ton car that will take maybe 5s, a 200bhp car maybe 3s. That saving is 2s of your life, a few car lengths distance. Take overtaking a 40mph driver as an another example: In my old 200bhp/ton Audi if I floored it from 2s behind them I would be doing 85-90mph as I came alongside them, that was highly illegal and perhaps risky. In a 100bhp/ton car I'll still hit 65-70mph as I'm alongside, the whole overtake is still done in around 5s which is plenty adequate. The noise and warp-drive effect of the V8 were great but it was totally unnecessary.
I'll agree that driving something genuinely slow (a knackered 59bhp Escort van being my worst) holds you up. Overtaking was completely impossible and you could accelerate flat out for a couple of miles without hitting 70mph. There is a level though where more power is just for giggles and silly noises (nothing wrong with that), it doesn't actually gain you anything on the road.
TurboHatchback said:
In a 100bhp/ton car I'll still hit 65-70mph as I'm alongside, the whole overtake is still done in around 5s which is plenty adequate.
these days with everyone driving auto/tip diesels...in a word no!
If you get a spiteful small minded driver, they will floor it as you try to pass, and chances are they will out accelerate you with just 100bhp/ton and successfully block you causing you to have to fall back and abort.
I can only get my country lane passes done by 'surprise' and prior knowledge of the road these days.
take a huge run up and pass them with a huge speed differential without indication so they are unable predict and then subsequently block your pass.
its that or sit at 38.4 mph in the NSL zone for the next 15-20 miles.
just this week i had 3 attempted blocks in a row, one after the other by 3 consecutive drivers. Its bloody dangerous of them to do that ffs.
I'm really enjoying my 41bhp 2002 diesel Smart car. 60-70mpg, zero car tax, all depreciation written off at purchase by my man-maths. Must be bloody close to cheapest motoring?
So slow is everyone's driving, it seems, that my Smart doesn't remotely have a problem keeping up with the traffic.
So slow is everyone's driving, it seems, that my Smart doesn't remotely have a problem keeping up with the traffic.
SystemParanoia said:
TurboHatchback said:
In a 100bhp/ton car I'll still hit 65-70mph as I'm alongside, the whole overtake is still done in around 5s which is plenty adequate.
these days with everyone driving auto/tip diesels...in a word no!
If you get a spiteful small minded driver, they will floor it as you try to pass, and chances are they will out accelerate you with just 100bhp/ton and successfully block you causing you to have to fall back and abort.
I can only get my country lane passes done by 'surprise' and prior knowledge of the road these days.
take a huge run up and pass them with a huge speed differential without indication so they are unable predict and then subsequently block your pass.
its that or sit at 38.4 mph in the NSL zone for the next 15-20 miles.
just this week i had 3 attempted blocks in a row, one after the other by 3 consecutive drivers. Its bloody dangerous of them to do that ffs.
I get people overtaking me like this occasionally, just before I get to the limit change they pull out and start going, what exactly did they think was going to happen?
Also if your definition of country lane is at all similar to mine then you shouldn't be getting close to the NSL on them or overtaking anything other than tractors and bikes. The old adage applies, it's a limit not a target and has no bearing on what the safe speed for the road is. Slingshot overtakes without huge visibility are inherently dangerous, if someone comes round the bend at your last abort point and the person in front panics and slams on the brakes you are going into the back of them at speed.
Its not just power but grip as well as drivers aids , yet the laws of physics stay the same
New cars are so much more composed and have more grip in the bends (maybe not as much fun)
I see people take corners in my village and estate at speeds that are too fast, but will feel composed in the car, this is run of the mill focuses etc
If you took the same corners at the same speed in old escort, or fiesta it would have been all over the shop/tyre squeal etc, couple this with the instant dollop of torque and increased noise suppression and its a bit dangerous to naive driver
New cars are so much more composed and have more grip in the bends (maybe not as much fun)
I see people take corners in my village and estate at speeds that are too fast, but will feel composed in the car, this is run of the mill focuses etc
If you took the same corners at the same speed in old escort, or fiesta it would have been all over the shop/tyre squeal etc, couple this with the instant dollop of torque and increased noise suppression and its a bit dangerous to naive driver
TurboHatchback said:
SystemParanoia said:
TurboHatchback said:
In a 100bhp/ton car I'll still hit 65-70mph as I'm alongside, the whole overtake is still done in around 5s which is plenty adequate.
these days with everyone driving auto/tip diesels...in a word no!
If you get a spiteful small minded driver, they will floor it as you try to pass, and chances are they will out accelerate you with just 100bhp/ton and successfully block you causing you to have to fall back and abort.
I can only get my country lane passes done by 'surprise' and prior knowledge of the road these days.
take a huge run up and pass them with a huge speed differential without indication so they are unable predict and then subsequently block your pass.
its that or sit at 38.4 mph in the NSL zone for the next 15-20 miles.
just this week i had 3 attempted blocks in a row, one after the other by 3 consecutive drivers. Its bloody dangerous of them to do that ffs.
I get people overtaking me like this occasionally, just before I get to the limit change they pull out and start going, what exactly did they think was going to happen?
Also if your definition of country lane is at all similar to mine then you shouldn't be getting close to the NSL on them or overtaking anything other than tractors and bikes. The old adage applies, it's a limit not a target and has no bearing on what the safe speed for the road is. Slingshot overtakes without huge visibility are inherently dangerous, if someone comes round the bend at your last abort point and the person in front panics and slams on the brakes you are going into the back of them at speed.
TwistingMyMelon said:
TurboHatchback said:
SystemParanoia said:
TurboHatchback said:
In a 100bhp/ton car I'll still hit 65-70mph as I'm alongside, the whole overtake is still done in around 5s which is plenty adequate.
these days with everyone driving auto/tip diesels...in a word no!
If you get a spiteful small minded driver, they will floor it as you try to pass, and chances are they will out accelerate you with just 100bhp/ton and successfully block you causing you to have to fall back and abort.
I can only get my country lane passes done by 'surprise' and prior knowledge of the road these days.
take a huge run up and pass them with a huge speed differential without indication so they are unable predict and then subsequently block your pass.
its that or sit at 38.4 mph in the NSL zone for the next 15-20 miles.
just this week i had 3 attempted blocks in a row, one after the other by 3 consecutive drivers. Its bloody dangerous of them to do that ffs.
I get people overtaking me like this occasionally, just before I get to the limit change they pull out and start going, what exactly did they think was going to happen?
Also if your definition of country lane is at all similar to mine then you shouldn't be getting close to the NSL on them or overtaking anything other than tractors and bikes. The old adage applies, it's a limit not a target and has no bearing on what the safe speed for the road is. Slingshot overtakes without huge visibility are inherently dangerous, if someone comes round the bend at your last abort point and the person in front panics and slams on the brakes you are going into the back of them at speed.
i give more thinking/braking space that the muppet that's normally an inch off my rear bumper.
Here is one of the small overtaking spots
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6365577,-1.87498...
as you exit the bend you get sight of the road ahead and whether its clear to proceed, and is long enough for you to abort if something appears
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6370087,-1.88150...
Here is that same spot from the other direction.
along that stretch of road there are 2 more overtaking spots, the last one being the longest before the limit abruptly becomes a 30 limit.
I don't suffer the same issues in the company derv pool car as it both has more power, and is much quieter while passing than my little 1.6 @ 6k rpm
Edit : this is the last passing spot - you can see all the way down to the 30 limit area
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6397978,-1.86136...
Edited by SystemParanoia on Friday 24th February 13:22
TurboHatchback said:
Also if your definition of country lane is at all similar to mine then you shouldn't be getting close to the NSL on them or overtaking anything other than tractors and bikes. The old adage applies, it's a limit not a target and has no bearing on what the safe speed for the road is.
Well that all depends on the country lane, doesn't it? Around our parts most of them are long well sighted straights with a few corners at either end. They literally stretch from horizon to horizon. Feel free to see just how long this one straight is, but even on the twister parts it's easy to go between 40 and 60 and back again as you pass the bends. Just because the guy said 'country lane' and 'NSL' it doesn't mean it was automatically inappropriate. If overtakes were off the table around these ways you'd spend most of your life doing 28 to 35mph on said long straight country roads for no other reason than because Margaret in front has cataracts and her old Micra doesn't make her feel very safe. SystemParanoia said:
I wait for the high visibility sections,
i give more thinking/braking space that the muppet that's normally an inch off my rear bumper.
Here is one of the small overtaking spots
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6365577,-1.87498...
as you exit the bend you get sight of the road ahead and whether its clear to proceed, and is long enough for you to abort if something appears
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6370087,-1.88150...
Here is that same spot from the other direction.
along that stretch of road there are 2 more overtaking spots, the last one being the longest before the limit abruptly becomes a 30 limit.
I don't suffer the same issues in the company derv pool car as it both has more power, and is much quieter while passing than my little 1.6 @ 6k rpm
I don't consider that a safe overtaking spot for anything doing more than about 20mph. Google measures the limit of visibility at around 365m, you have to assume that someone will appear coming the other way at 60mph at the precise instant you commit to the overtake.i give more thinking/braking space that the muppet that's normally an inch off my rear bumper.
Here is one of the small overtaking spots
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6365577,-1.87498...
as you exit the bend you get sight of the road ahead and whether its clear to proceed, and is long enough for you to abort if something appears
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6370087,-1.88150...
Here is that same spot from the other direction.
along that stretch of road there are 2 more overtaking spots, the last one being the longest before the limit abruptly becomes a 30 limit.
I don't suffer the same issues in the company derv pool car as it both has more power, and is much quieter while passing than my little 1.6 @ 6k rpm
60mph = ~27m/s
Assuming you spend 1s analysing the overtake before committing you are down to ~340m. Say you're overtaking someone doing 40mph and you top out at 80 during the overtake your average speed over that distance will be ~60mph. You have to be back on your side of the road in half that distance to avoid hitting the oncoming car, that is 340/(2*27) = 6.3s to complete the entire overtake. It isn't even close to feasible with any safety margin whatsoever.
TurboHatchback said:
SystemParanoia said:
I wait for the high visibility sections,
i give more thinking/braking space that the muppet that's normally an inch off my rear bumper.
Here is one of the small overtaking spots
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6365577,-1.87498...
as you exit the bend you get sight of the road ahead and whether its clear to proceed, and is long enough for you to abort if something appears
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6370087,-1.88150...
Here is that same spot from the other direction.
along that stretch of road there are 2 more overtaking spots, the last one being the longest before the limit abruptly becomes a 30 limit.
I don't suffer the same issues in the company derv pool car as it both has more power, and is much quieter while passing than my little 1.6 @ 6k rpm
I don't consider that a safe overtaking spot for anything doing more than about 20mph. Google measures the limit of visibility at around 365m, you have to assume that someone will appear coming the other way at 60mph at the precise instant you commit to the overtake.i give more thinking/braking space that the muppet that's normally an inch off my rear bumper.
Here is one of the small overtaking spots
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6365577,-1.87498...
as you exit the bend you get sight of the road ahead and whether its clear to proceed, and is long enough for you to abort if something appears
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6370087,-1.88150...
Here is that same spot from the other direction.
along that stretch of road there are 2 more overtaking spots, the last one being the longest before the limit abruptly becomes a 30 limit.
I don't suffer the same issues in the company derv pool car as it both has more power, and is much quieter while passing than my little 1.6 @ 6k rpm
60mph = ~27m/s
Assuming you spend 1s analysing the overtake before committing you are down to ~340m. Say you're overtaking someone doing 40mph and you top out at 80 during the overtake your average speed over that distance will be ~60mph. You have to be back on your side of the road in half that distance to avoid hitting the oncoming car, that is 340/(2*27) = 6.3s to complete the entire overtake. It isn't even close to feasible with any safety margin whatsoever.
if there's something there at any distance, then this spot is wasted and you have to wait for the next one.
But I also get blocked on the last one leading to the 30 limit which is a less 'marginal' overtaking spot
my 100bhp/ton motor
Edited by SystemParanoia on Friday 24th February 13:50
New cars do seem to be much faster than those of yesteryear. I've just leased a 1.6 petrol Astra Elite (don't laugh) that has nearly the same Bhp/ton as an Impreza WRX from 2005 (155 compared to 158 for the Scoob). Torque per ton is actually higher in the Astra. The thing really flies when required but looks like a generic boggo family hatch.
Would it then be a reasonable summary to say that we are experiencing a situation where the performance available in fairly average cars - due to better engine tech, better tyres, electronic aids and so on - is reaching a point where on normal roads, driven by normal people, there is a relatively small gap between them and 'performance' cars? Of course that's not to say that they are absolutely as fast, just that there is a fairly meaningless difference unless you are prepared to risk your licence?
The point about the multi-speed autos was a good one - I've never driven one, but back in the day (15 years ago!) the auto version was the slow, thirsty one for old people - my Mondeo auto was only 3 speed iirc. It's just not the case now - an 8 speed auto that can change gear in a fraction of a second is going to change gear much more quickly than I can, and they have an extra clutch.
(It's also true that I don't truly hammer the Honda - I've just looked for it's power curve and apparently it peaks beyond 6,000rpm. My ears generally force me to change up before then - but that is perhaps part of it too - if you want to overtake in a modern diesel, you don't have to have the engine screaming two gears lower than normal as you come onto a straight just in case there is an opportunity because you'll be sat in the middle of a great wodge of torque regardless of the gear - and if you have a multi-speed auto it really doesn't matter)
The point about the multi-speed autos was a good one - I've never driven one, but back in the day (15 years ago!) the auto version was the slow, thirsty one for old people - my Mondeo auto was only 3 speed iirc. It's just not the case now - an 8 speed auto that can change gear in a fraction of a second is going to change gear much more quickly than I can, and they have an extra clutch.
(It's also true that I don't truly hammer the Honda - I've just looked for it's power curve and apparently it peaks beyond 6,000rpm. My ears generally force me to change up before then - but that is perhaps part of it too - if you want to overtake in a modern diesel, you don't have to have the engine screaming two gears lower than normal as you come onto a straight just in case there is an opportunity because you'll be sat in the middle of a great wodge of torque regardless of the gear - and if you have a multi-speed auto it really doesn't matter)
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