RE: Alfa Romeo Giulia: UK Review
Discussion
PhantomPH said:
To me, this article reads as, "it's actually a bit s
t, but ill let it off because it's an Alfa".
Shame.
Base spec only petrol (in the current climate for the U.K. Market?!), nasty diesel, cheap interior and touch-points...sorry, but if I were a 'rep' and using a car every day for many miles, I'd still go with one of the competition that was overall more refined...*cough* Audi.
What an utter load of crap! Anyone who sits in the drivers seat and thinks the "touch points" are nasty must spend their lives living a silk lined bubble. The wheel is exactly the right size, the paddles are lovely bits of metal and the seats are in exactly the right place. t, but ill let it off because it's an Alfa". Shame.
Base spec only petrol (in the current climate for the U.K. Market?!), nasty diesel, cheap interior and touch-points...sorry, but if I were a 'rep' and using a car every day for many miles, I'd still go with one of the competition that was overall more refined...*cough* Audi.
Ruskins said:
PhantomPH said:
To me, this article reads as, "it's actually a bit st, but ill let it off because it's an Alfa".
Shame.
Base spec only petrol (in the current climate for the U.K. Market?!), nasty diesel, cheap interior and touch-points...sorry, but if I were a 'rep' and using a car every day for many miles, I'd still go with one of the competition that was overall more refined...*cough* Audi.
What an utter load of crap! Anyone who sits in the drivers seat and thinks the "touch points" are nasty must spend their lives living a silk lined bubble. The wheel is exactly the right size, the paddles are lovely bits of metal and the seats are in exactly the right place. t, but ill let it off because it's an Alfa". Shame.
Base spec only petrol (in the current climate for the U.K. Market?!), nasty diesel, cheap interior and touch-points...sorry, but if I were a 'rep' and using a car every day for many miles, I'd still go with one of the competition that was overall more refined...*cough* Audi.
whilst I respect your opinion, my PERSONAL OPINION is that I like to feel like I am getting a quality product no matter what or why I buy it. To me, touch point quality makes the whole experience of ownership and driving, much nicer. Alcantara touch points in my car make bugger all difference to performance or driving ability, but they feel nicer than alternatives and as such it adds to the ownership experience.
And given the amount of money manufacturers spend on that aspect alone, I'd guess I'm not in the minority.
Ruskins said:
QBee said:
Why equip the petrol version with an engine that emits 138g CO2?
That is very inefficient by today's standards and will put off any eco-friendly company car buyer.
BMW 320i - 134 g/kmThat is very inefficient by today's standards and will put off any eco-friendly company car buyer.
Mercedes C200 - 126 g/km
Not exactly "inefficient" compared to the rivals is it?
However:
My (accountant's) view is that any company car driver who can, will go for a hybrid these days. The type with a 30 mile battery and then running on petrol.
The two company directors I advised late last year were one who was in a 62 plate BMW 520D (133 Gm CO2 IIRC), and the other was in a 60 plate Jaguar XF (about 162 gm CO2 IIRC).
The BMW driver is now in a BMW 330e (48 gm CO2) and the Jaguar driver is in a Merc C350e (44 gm CO2).
In the case of the BMW, it saved him about £4,000 a year tax on his car and fuel benefit. The car came from a main dealer, was 3 months old and cost £29,000. The company gets 18% capital allowances and benefits from lower class 1A NI
The Jag > Merc driver has saved £6000 a year in tax, the car was £39,000 new, but the company gets a 100% capital allowance on the car in the first year, which is worth just under £8,000 to the company (brand new cars under 75gm CO2 qualify for this). And again, lower class 1A NI.
And the mpg claims aren't a load of bull either. The Merc driver commutes about 45 miles to the office. So 30 miles on battery and 15 on petrol. He recharges the battery at the office. He does go out on sales calls, but his car does regenerate the battery when driving on petrol I think. Whatever, his fuel consumption after 6 months of all driving is around 80 mpg. The BMW driver does 55 miles to the office, but he is mostly office based. Again, he recharges the car at the office. His mpg is around 70. They both say the only thing that takes some getting used to is hearing the petrol engine cut out at 70 on the motorway if they take their foot off the gas!
Perhaps I should have said that I was surprised there wasn't a hybrid in the range, but with company car drivers CO2 and badge are king, it would seem. I feel Alfa have missed a trick with their choice of engines.
That last comment about the company car buyer is really interesting. From a financial and company point of view why would any one pick the Alfa? As a person who would like the ideas of this as a ten year old car the lack of a manual on the basic car at least is a real disappointment. The engine bay looks absolutely rubbish compared to other Alfas. I really feel the car world is heading in a direction that is making me wish I did not give a stuff about car and only cared about personal transport. All the auto gearboxes and electric handbrakes is really making me feel very despondent, i'm not against progress but changing gear in a big car or small car for me is a huge part of the experience of driving even doing the daily commute. This Alfa is a real shame. Looks like it's BMW for me for the foreseeable future.
PhantomPH said:
How surprising, given what you have as your car in your profile...
whilst I respect your opinion, my PERSONAL OPINION is that I like to feel like I am getting a quality product no matter what or why I buy it. To me, touch point quality makes the whole experience of ownership and driving, much nicer. Alcantara touch points in my car make bugger all difference to performance or driving ability, but they feel nicer than alternatives and as such it adds to the ownership experience.
And given the amount of money manufacturers spend on that aspect alone, I'd guess I'm not in the minority.
Its fair enough that you like one type of material over another, that's personal preference and i appreciate that the "its crap but its an Alfa so we love it" stuff needs to stop but I am sick of reading reviews where they go on about the quality of the plastic on the bottom of the door cards being inferior. Really? The part of the door that you are likely to kick as you get in an out? This is what matters to people? This then gets translated on forums like this and general internet that the car in question has a bad quality interior suddenly a car which is really a very nice place to sit in has a rep that the interior is crap.whilst I respect your opinion, my PERSONAL OPINION is that I like to feel like I am getting a quality product no matter what or why I buy it. To me, touch point quality makes the whole experience of ownership and driving, much nicer. Alcantara touch points in my car make bugger all difference to performance or driving ability, but they feel nicer than alternatives and as such it adds to the ownership experience.
And given the amount of money manufacturers spend on that aspect alone, I'd guess I'm not in the minority.
Same thing happened to the 159 when people kept going on about it being heavy when in reality it was pretty much the same as its rivals.
A pet hate of mine is people who base their opinion on things on other peoples reviews rather than going an forming their own.
For example if you read a load of bad reviews for a movie before you go see it you will have lost any objectivity when you do go see it.
Yes I am a fanatic for this motor company and that's because i believe that the world needs a future where we dont all go around in grey German cars that trade excitement and charisma for a really well engineered heater control nob.
Edited by Ruskins on Thursday 16th March 12:17
Unfortunately the requirements of majority of modern car buyer are a world away from the enthusiast driver. Their priorities are
1) Cheap to lease\finance
2) Easy to drive
3) Low mpg\Co2
None of the above is conducive to making a car exciting to drive. Even when they do make performance versions, the bean counters will ensure that they don't stray too far from the base car as it doesn't make financial sense for a car with limited sales scope.
1) Cheap to lease\finance
2) Easy to drive
3) Low mpg\Co2
None of the above is conducive to making a car exciting to drive. Even when they do make performance versions, the bean counters will ensure that they don't stray too far from the base car as it doesn't make financial sense for a car with limited sales scope.
Ruskins said:
Yes I am a fanatic for this motor company and that's because i believe that the world needs a future where we dont all go around grey German cars that trade excitement and charisma for a really well engineered heater control nob.
In that case you should, IMO, be this car's biggest critic as it seems to be a carbon copy of the German competition. I liked old Alfas because they genuinely had character even if they were "worse" than the competition objectively. Initial impressions/reviews seem to imply that this thing is worse than the competition in objective terms and just as dull.
kambites said:
In that case you should, IMO, be this car's biggest critic as it seems to be a carbon copy of the German competition.
I liked old Alfas because they genuinely had character even if they were "worse" than the competition objectively. Initial impressions/reviews seem to imply that this thing is worse than the competition in objective terms and just as dull.
Sure but you cant have your cake and eat it, the company needs to shift enough units to stay alive. Making cars that just appeal to the enthusiast and not to Joe-2.4 kids is not going to cut it in the modern market.I liked old Alfas because they genuinely had character even if they were "worse" than the competition objectively. Initial impressions/reviews seem to imply that this thing is worse than the competition in objective terms and just as dull.
I agree that the Giulia could have looked a lot better and could have come with an N/A v6 for screaming down the riviera and who knows? The next cars they make might be more like this but at the moment they need to sell units and there is no way to out sell the German marques without becoming a bit more like them. The only way to out M3 the M3 is to build a car that's like an M3 but with some better steering.
I have never been in the market for a diesel rep-mobil for pounding up and down motorways and taking the sprogs to Butlins so I am not able to say what that type of person wants out of a medium sized saloon. I guess if you spend all day at 77mph on the M6, perhaps door card plastics become a lot more important?
Edited by Ruskins on Thursday 16th March 12:37
Ruskin, you're actually making my point for me. In order to make the Quadrophonic, Alfa needs to shift enough 'regular' units. And as you say, they will need to at least match the rivals. Regular customers have grown to appreciate things like touch point quality (even subconsciously) and if reviews are mentioning - as you say - failings they notice in that area, then Alfa are going to struggle.
This is not a 'is the GQ a great drivers car' article. It's one about how the regular models stack up against the competition. And as I stated originally, this article reads like the car doesn't stack up. Sorry.
This is not a 'is the GQ a great drivers car' article. It's one about how the regular models stack up against the competition. And as I stated originally, this article reads like the car doesn't stack up. Sorry.
Ruskin makes more sense for me.
Last paragraph of article:
"A lot of the 'new Alfa' in the Giulia is immensely encouraging. But hints of 'old Alfa' like this, no matter how detail, might send potential converts scurrying back to the Germans. Should they? These criticisms of the Giulia are valid but they are detail; the bigger picture is of a very accomplished car that combines style, decent dynamics and more than a hint of romance to a sector generally lacking in the latter. An Alfa Romeo you need not make excuses for? It's as close as you could hope for.
That's predominantly positive.... no excuses, a few details not quite hitting the highs...but across the board it hits more highs than the competition... as a whole it wins, rather than winning in one area, and losing in all others, it comes near the top in every area kind of thing.
Like a car that wins the ECotY competition by being each judges' 2nd choice...because each judge chose a different 1st choice...
What I'm reading recently in this thread is the tired old, worn in views that are really hard to shake....
Jaguar...old-man comfy, handle well, but not quite as good as BMW, Audi have better interior
Audi ...trendy FWD/AWD with amazing interior plastics, but don't handle quite as well as a BMW.
Mercedes...comfy....with nice engines...not quite as nice as a BMW
Alfa Romeo... good looking...bad interior plastics and electrics, that's not quite as good as a BMW...
For me generally speaking the void between a Sierra and a Mercedes 190 was MUCH larger than between a current Mondeo and a C Class.
The whole sector is squeezed right up to one another where the variances of quality, materials, driving experience etc are now miniscule.
To the point marketing and design are the only remaining battlefields....that and cultivating your marque specific time honoured cliches.
BMW RWD driver's choice
Audi, big wheels and wonderful interiors
Jag, left field Brit
Merc, a 'cut above'
Alfa - romance and passion
Everything has changed and everything has stayed the same. If you have such a hard wired belief that the plastics on the lower panels of an Audi dashboard are so substantially better that that car makes you feel better, then nothing will change your choice.
If you want to be seen as the 'driver', then nothing will deter you from reaching for an 'M' badge
For this thread Alfa have to break that down and claw back the bit that is theirs and develop it slowly over time (Audi used to be ignored pretty much back in the day of Audi 80s).
The attempts by Alfa in my youth, never got close, they were worse in pretty much every area apart from the design.
This time, whilst design is still subjective, certainly in halo model form it is now the current king of the crop...on balance...
The less cooking models will feed off that...and certainly the way I read this article, they hold up on their own regardless of the QF.
All they need are positive reviews (check) and then get some serious numbers on the road to gradually increase public awareness..... to be seen.
In this regard the company car/PCP situation will be pretty important....
Last paragraph of article:
"A lot of the 'new Alfa' in the Giulia is immensely encouraging. But hints of 'old Alfa' like this, no matter how detail, might send potential converts scurrying back to the Germans. Should they? These criticisms of the Giulia are valid but they are detail; the bigger picture is of a very accomplished car that combines style, decent dynamics and more than a hint of romance to a sector generally lacking in the latter. An Alfa Romeo you need not make excuses for? It's as close as you could hope for.
That's predominantly positive.... no excuses, a few details not quite hitting the highs...but across the board it hits more highs than the competition... as a whole it wins, rather than winning in one area, and losing in all others, it comes near the top in every area kind of thing.
Like a car that wins the ECotY competition by being each judges' 2nd choice...because each judge chose a different 1st choice...
What I'm reading recently in this thread is the tired old, worn in views that are really hard to shake....
Jaguar...old-man comfy, handle well, but not quite as good as BMW, Audi have better interior
Audi ...trendy FWD/AWD with amazing interior plastics, but don't handle quite as well as a BMW.
Mercedes...comfy....with nice engines...not quite as nice as a BMW
Alfa Romeo... good looking...bad interior plastics and electrics, that's not quite as good as a BMW...
For me generally speaking the void between a Sierra and a Mercedes 190 was MUCH larger than between a current Mondeo and a C Class.
The whole sector is squeezed right up to one another where the variances of quality, materials, driving experience etc are now miniscule.
To the point marketing and design are the only remaining battlefields....that and cultivating your marque specific time honoured cliches.
BMW RWD driver's choice
Audi, big wheels and wonderful interiors
Jag, left field Brit
Merc, a 'cut above'
Alfa - romance and passion
Everything has changed and everything has stayed the same. If you have such a hard wired belief that the plastics on the lower panels of an Audi dashboard are so substantially better that that car makes you feel better, then nothing will change your choice.
If you want to be seen as the 'driver', then nothing will deter you from reaching for an 'M' badge
For this thread Alfa have to break that down and claw back the bit that is theirs and develop it slowly over time (Audi used to be ignored pretty much back in the day of Audi 80s).
The attempts by Alfa in my youth, never got close, they were worse in pretty much every area apart from the design.
This time, whilst design is still subjective, certainly in halo model form it is now the current king of the crop...on balance...
The less cooking models will feed off that...and certainly the way I read this article, they hold up on their own regardless of the QF.
All they need are positive reviews (check) and then get some serious numbers on the road to gradually increase public awareness..... to be seen.
In this regard the company car/PCP situation will be pretty important....
Ruskins said:
Sure but you cant have your cake and eat it, the company needs to shift enough units to stay alive. Making cars that just appeal to the enthusiast and not to Joe-2.4 kids is not going to cut it in the modern market.
Indeed, but I was questioning whether there's actually any value in Alfa surviving if all they do is produce inferior clones of German cars. kambites said:
Ruskins said:
Sure but you cant have your cake and eat it, the company needs to shift enough units to stay alive. Making cars that just appeal to the enthusiast and not to Joe-2.4 kids is not going to cut it in the modern market.
Indeed, but I was questioning whether there's actually any value in Alfa surviving if all they do is produce inferior clones of German cars. quite a few people subjectively prefer their design language
It's still arguable that the Guilia is inferior... it might be inferior to a BMW in one area and inferior to an Audi in another, but if it's 'good enough' overall and/or better in a few areas, then it's as deserving as any other...
Quickmoose said:
8C and 4C weren't clones...
I don't think anything Alfa have developed from the ground up themselves has been until this; that's rather my point. I'm certainly not saying this is a bad car; from what I've seen it's too bland to be called "bad". If I was in the market for a car in this sector I'd test-drive it along with everything else and buy whatever I liked best which might or might not be the Alfa (although judging by the reviews, it probably wouldn't be).
If Alfa are happy become "just another white-goods saloon car manufacturer" then fine. I don't have to be happy about the idea, though.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 16th March 14:42
I don't think it's inferior in terms of styling or interior, in fact I'd say it's the prettiest 4 door car in the segment and the interior is on par in terms of quality and design.
My only complaints are that is has no manual option in the UK and that the range of engines are merely adequate rather than covering all bases. Where is the big petrol engine taking the fight to the M-Sport\S line's? A 4 pot with the wick turned up won't cut it and your only other option is a big jump to the QV.
Where is the larger diesel engine for those who want a gruntier diesel and MOST important of all, where is the hybrid option? I can't believe in this day and age, a manufacturer releasing a new model line-up with no mention of a hybrid option.
My only complaints are that is has no manual option in the UK and that the range of engines are merely adequate rather than covering all bases. Where is the big petrol engine taking the fight to the M-Sport\S line's? A 4 pot with the wick turned up won't cut it and your only other option is a big jump to the QV.
Where is the larger diesel engine for those who want a gruntier diesel and MOST important of all, where is the hybrid option? I can't believe in this day and age, a manufacturer releasing a new model line-up with no mention of a hybrid option.
There are more engines and variants to come in the future I am sure.
Id be surprised if we dont see a coupe or estate in a year or 2. Trouble is that everyone wants everything straight away because this is how the Germans do it but companies that are starting over, like Jaguar or Alfa Romeo cannot afford to develop and release all body styles and every conceivable engine variant in one go.
Id be surprised if we dont see a coupe or estate in a year or 2. Trouble is that everyone wants everything straight away because this is how the Germans do it but companies that are starting over, like Jaguar or Alfa Romeo cannot afford to develop and release all body styles and every conceivable engine variant in one go.
Ruskins said:
kambites said:
Quickmoose said:
8C and 4C weren't clones...
I don't think anything Alfa have developed from the ground up themselves has been until this; that's rather my point. 
Well on the one I hired, the interior was faultless. Very nice place to be, and the screen integration was the best I have seen, bar none.
There were only two drawbacks for me:
- All of the bonging and interlock rubbish that goes with modern cars - can't avoid that.
- I found the engine a bit dull, but it was a 4 pot diesel, the first 4 pot anything I've driven in years.
If I was in the market for such a thing, I'd get one every day over BM/Merc/Audi because it is a much better looking car, especially from the front. And its a bit different.
There were only two drawbacks for me:
- All of the bonging and interlock rubbish that goes with modern cars - can't avoid that.
- I found the engine a bit dull, but it was a 4 pot diesel, the first 4 pot anything I've driven in years.
If I was in the market for such a thing, I'd get one every day over BM/Merc/Audi because it is a much better looking car, especially from the front. And its a bit different.
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