RE: Lotus Elise Sprint
Discussion
Derek Chevalier said:
Are you sure BOE inflation is a suitable comparison? In 1996 a 911 Carrera was around 65k. Today the range starts at ~78k.
£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.
Nice to see you think this is comparable to a 911 Carrera. Porsche enthusiasts may disagree. £37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.
Fantastic, great to see the trickle down of the nice bits n bobs from the Exige.
Faster out of the blocks and cheaper than a 4C or Cayman, hand-built in the UK, yet still lot's of honking from the back benches I see! Ha - can't please some people obviously, even if you lobbed £10k off the price and stuck a V6 in it people would moan about the colour, ashtray size, what their Dad bought one like it for....!
Good one Lotus, an impressive range that gets better year on year.
Faster out of the blocks and cheaper than a 4C or Cayman, hand-built in the UK, yet still lot's of honking from the back benches I see! Ha - can't please some people obviously, even if you lobbed £10k off the price and stuck a V6 in it people would moan about the colour, ashtray size, what their Dad bought one like it for....!
Good one Lotus, an impressive range that gets better year on year.
Derek Chevalier said:
leglessAlex said:
Lefty said:
Too expensive still.
The s1 was £18k in 1996. 20 years of CPI inflation takes that to about £27k. At £30k this would be a lot more attractive than it is at £37k.
I'm not sure. This article indicates that the Elise was £18,990 in 1996, and using the Bank of England inflation calculator that gives £32,712 in 2016. Seems ok to me when this claims the current Elise Sport costs £29,900 today. The s1 was £18k in 1996. 20 years of CPI inflation takes that to about £27k. At £30k this would be a lot more attractive than it is at £37k.
Sure, faster or lighter versions are more, possibly too, expensive, but it seems the most basic Elise you can buy is much the same cost as it was 20 years ago once inflation has been taken into account, possibly a little cheaper.
£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.
Of course, yes the specials are more expensive and as far as I know many cars have actually come down in price when you calculate what they 'should' cost based on inflation, which makes Lotus look bad, but I still think the cost now for a base car is largely comparable to what it was 20 years ago.
It is a lot of money for a car, but then I'm not sure where you'd get a similar driving experience for less or similar money? They're light, manual, rear wheel drive and most importantly, they have a roof, I argue that puts them in a completely different category to the likes of Caterham and so on. Boxsters start at a bit more, but they're heavier with taller gears and electric steering, not to mention presumably higher running costs.
I'm not sure you can say the current Lotus range represents good value as such, but I do think they're offering something no one else is at a still somewhat attainable price. Yes, they'll be outrun by a Golf R but I'd think if you're worried about that then you're not the target market.
Cold said:
Derek Chevalier said:
Are you sure BOE inflation is a suitable comparison? In 1996 a 911 Carrera was around 65k. Today the range starts at ~78k.
£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.
Nice to see you think this is comparable to a 911 Carrera. Porsche enthusiasts may disagree. £37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.
Derek Chevalier said:
I don't. My point was that I don't think the typical cost of a sports car has doubled since 1996
Maybe some have, maybe some haven't. This one certainly hasn't once inflation has been accounted for. The other point is that many manufacturers are wanting to make a financial profit from the goods they sell. Not sure why Lotus is constantly on the receiving end of such scrutiny from PH members for a rather basic business practice.
Lefty said:
Too expensive still.
The s1 was £18k in 1996. 20 years of CPI inflation takes that to about £27k. At £30k this would be a lot more attractive than it is at £37k.
CPI doesn't reflect the uplift of costs for a product like this though does it? The s1 was £18k in 1996. 20 years of CPI inflation takes that to about £27k. At £30k this would be a lot more attractive than it is at £37k.
How many factories or cars are included in the retail consumer basket of general goods?
You might as well contrast it against the price of turnips.
Derek Chevalier said:
Cold said:
Derek Chevalier said:
Are you sure BOE inflation is a suitable comparison? In 1996 a 911 Carrera was around 65k. Today the range starts at ~78k.
£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.
Nice to see you think this is comparable to a 911 Carrera. Porsche enthusiasts may disagree. £37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.
Maybe Porsche were overpriced back in the day and now they are a bigger company with a bigger diversity and economies of scale lead to a stabilising of price... It's not a real comparison on both fronts really.
Cold said:
Maybe some have, maybe some haven't. This one certainly hasn't once inflation has been accounted for.
The other point is that many manufacturers are wanting to make a financial profit from the goods they sell. Not sure why Lotus is constantly on the receiving end of such scrutiny from PH members for a rather basic business practice.
It's because they do a fag packet cost and performance comparison with leasing a Golf R and wonder where the money goes. As mentioned above, some people get the Elise, some don't. The other point is that many manufacturers are wanting to make a financial profit from the goods they sell. Not sure why Lotus is constantly on the receiving end of such scrutiny from PH members for a rather basic business practice.
suffolk009 said:
Lefty said:
Too expensive still.
The s1 was £18k in 1996. 20 years of CPI inflation takes that to about £27k. At £30k this would be a lot more attractive than it is at £37k.
Fourth post in. Nice one. Perhaps you could mention second-hand Porsche for a full house.The s1 was £18k in 1996. 20 years of CPI inflation takes that to about £27k. At £30k this would be a lot more attractive than it is at £37k.
I think there's a post further down about the cost being more or less bang on comparable.
I think it looks great, wish I had the funds.
My point, if you really need it explaining, is that they used to be bargains. Now, they are not.
Derek Chevalier said:
£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.
Yep, £37k is a lot of money, but it can be argued the Elise is worth it.Obviously if you need to carry more than one passenger, or transport a meaningful amount of stuff, the the Elise is not going to be the car for you. Now a hot hatch is very good at what it does, and for some it would be the dog's danglies, but I doubt that a typical hot hatch buyer would even consider an Elise and vice-versa. Comparing the two is almost pointless. Although if we concentrate on your criteria of cost and performance we can give it a go.
Using your example of a 'decent' hot hatch, say a Golf GTI; a quick look on VW's website shows the cheapest petrol GTI costs £27,495 on the road for a three door. So £9.5k cheaper than the Elise. You're right - that's a whole heap of money, but I'll address that point in a minute.
Is it faster? 6.5 seconds to 60 Vs 5.9 for the Elise, so nope, not faster using that particular benchmark. And not only is the Golf slower accelerating, it will feel much slower because it's so insulated from the road. The Elise is also better balanced for track work, and will be kinder on its brakes, tyres and suspension due to its lower weight. The Golf does win on top speed though - 155mph Vs 127mph in the Lotus. So if you find a straight long enough, the Golf driver will pass the Lotus driver eventually. But then he'll have to brake sooner for the next corner, as the GTI is about half a ton heavier and that advantage is wiped out. And the Elise will be faster through that corner, too
Now let's come back to cost. If we take a typical period of three years for ownership, and take into account the total cost including tyres, servicing, fuel and depreciation, I would wager that the owner of a Golf GTI who did half a dozen track days a year would be worse off financially than if they had bought the Elise and done the same. So that initial price advantage doesn't quite stack up when you look at the whole picture.
When it comes down to it, though, it's simply a case of horses for courses. Some people want a relatively heavy, practical FWD hot hatch, some want a lightweight, impractical mid-engined sports car. Neither is the 'wrong' choice - it's just what suits that particular buyer.
Vroom101 said:
Is it faster? 6.5 seconds to 60 Vs 5.9 for the Elise, so nope, not faster using that particular benchmark. And not only is the Golf slower accelerating, it will feel much slower because it's so insulated from the road. The Elise is also better balanced for track work, and will be kinder on its brakes, tyres and suspension due to its lower weight. The Golf does win on top speed though - 155mph Vs 127mph in the Lotus. So if you find a straight long enough, the Golf driver will pass the Lotus driver eventually. But then he'll have to brake sooner for the next corner, as the GTI is about half a ton heavier and that advantage is wiped out. And the Elise will be faster through that corner, too
Many years ago Evo magazine tested a Mk2 Leon Cupra vs an Elise Club Racer 1.6 around Bedford Autodrome. The Elise was beaten in every performance metric including lap time, the latter by a significant amount. Since then hot hatches have got much faster still whilst the Elise is more or less the same...andy_s said:
Fantastic, great to see the trickle down of the nice bits n bobs from the Exige.
Faster out of the blocks and cheaper than a 4C or Cayman, hand-built in the UK, yet still lot's of honking from the back benches I see! Ha - can't please some people obviously, even if you lobbed £10k off the price and stuck a V6 in it people would moan about the colour, ashtray size, what their Dad bought one like it for....!
Good one Lotus, an impressive range that gets better year on year.
Yeah this looks great. Nothing else out there matches the driving experience at those prices. Comparing them against anything else is futile. For the doomsayers who have never driven one, you're missing out and it's the only way to get Lotus.Faster out of the blocks and cheaper than a 4C or Cayman, hand-built in the UK, yet still lot's of honking from the back benches I see! Ha - can't please some people obviously, even if you lobbed £10k off the price and stuck a V6 in it people would moan about the colour, ashtray size, what their Dad bought one like it for....!
Good one Lotus, an impressive range that gets better year on year.
Lefty said:
Too expensive still.
The s1 was £18k in 1996. 20 years of CPI inflation takes that to about £27k. At £30k this would be a lot more attractive than it is at £37k.
This...The s1 was £18k in 1996. 20 years of CPI inflation takes that to about £27k. At £30k this would be a lot more attractive than it is at £37k.
Buy yourself a low mileage S1 for about £20k less and you'll have 99% of the fun, if not more!
That's what we did last year and they're just wonderful little cars, heaps of fun
rogerhudson said:
They look like Austin Metro parts-bin leftovers.
That's because they are. They do the job, to moan about the aestetics of the mirrors is arguably to rather miss the point of the car. Anyway, there are worse parts-bin components still in the car than the mirrors; the stalks are horrible if that sort of thing concerns you. Re. the price, it does seem an awful lot for what it is. Unfortunately, where mainstream mass-produced vehicles have got continually cheaper (in real terms) as production-line automation has increased, Lotus' costs are probably largely unchanged from the early days of the S1 Elise. One could also argue that the continued sanitisation of mainstream "sports cars" means that the Elise's USP is stronger than ever, though.
Edited by kambites on Friday 17th March 20:23
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