I love the EU because...
Discussion
I don't of course, but something a bit surprising about the aftermath of the referendum is the emotional response of some remainers.
For pretty much all my adult life I have been a fairly strident leaver. In speaking and corresponding about the subject I have encountered economic arguments around trade, common regulations and the bargaining power of such a large market. I have encountered some political arguments about it being a counter weight to US hegemony or a safeguard against Russian expansionism. Even a Lib Dems MP who murmured something about promoting democracy and stability, but wouldn't elaborate much.
I always kind of hoped that if we had a referendum that these voices would be heard and a real ideological case for European Union would be made. In the event it didn't happen. We had project fear. We had scorn for aged yokels who fear foreigners. We had some sound economic arguments and some shaky ones. But no fans. No EU patriots. No vehement defence of this great venture or of its achievements. No vision of what a united Europe would look like, stand for or do for its citizens and the world.
That was sad but not altogether surprising. The cause of European federalism is quite niche, even a bit quixotic in this country.
What was a bit surprising was the emotional outpouring after the vote. Suddenly people were marching in the street with EU flags painted on their faces and talking about renouncing citizenship. Paddy Ashdown says that Britain is not his country any more. Some on here, apparently rational and intelligent people say they are embarrassed by the outcome.
That's not something caused by the potential loss of 3% of GDP by 2030, or by not forming part of some abstract counterweight to US hegemony. It’s rage and indignation caused apparently by the removal of something deeply treasured.
So without disparaging Leave voters as thick or reeling off vague predictions of economic harm, what is behind the apparent love of the EU that drives such a response, yet couldn't be articulated during the campaign or even since?
For pretty much all my adult life I have been a fairly strident leaver. In speaking and corresponding about the subject I have encountered economic arguments around trade, common regulations and the bargaining power of such a large market. I have encountered some political arguments about it being a counter weight to US hegemony or a safeguard against Russian expansionism. Even a Lib Dems MP who murmured something about promoting democracy and stability, but wouldn't elaborate much.
I always kind of hoped that if we had a referendum that these voices would be heard and a real ideological case for European Union would be made. In the event it didn't happen. We had project fear. We had scorn for aged yokels who fear foreigners. We had some sound economic arguments and some shaky ones. But no fans. No EU patriots. No vehement defence of this great venture or of its achievements. No vision of what a united Europe would look like, stand for or do for its citizens and the world.
That was sad but not altogether surprising. The cause of European federalism is quite niche, even a bit quixotic in this country.
What was a bit surprising was the emotional outpouring after the vote. Suddenly people were marching in the street with EU flags painted on their faces and talking about renouncing citizenship. Paddy Ashdown says that Britain is not his country any more. Some on here, apparently rational and intelligent people say they are embarrassed by the outcome.
That's not something caused by the potential loss of 3% of GDP by 2030, or by not forming part of some abstract counterweight to US hegemony. It’s rage and indignation caused apparently by the removal of something deeply treasured.
So without disparaging Leave voters as thick or reeling off vague predictions of economic harm, what is behind the apparent love of the EU that drives such a response, yet couldn't be articulated during the campaign or even since?
It certainly is but to put the concept into simple terms that you should be able to follow:
Unification is preferable to division, especially in the world we currently live in.
That's something of a philosophy and I suspect lies at the core of the argument. You either agree with that or you don't and I would hazard a guess that a lot of the economics are sideshows to this in the sense that you either see unification as being economically good or bad as a result of your views on the above.
That about covers it for me.
Unification is preferable to division, especially in the world we currently live in.
That's something of a philosophy and I suspect lies at the core of the argument. You either agree with that or you don't and I would hazard a guess that a lot of the economics are sideshows to this in the sense that you either see unification as being economically good or bad as a result of your views on the above.
That about covers it for me.
Until Brexit became a thing i'm not sure many would have differentiated between Europe and The EU.
I think most British people might like or even love Europe in so far as they like or love the countries, people, traditions, culture, scenery, diversity etc.
Why anyone would feel love for a political union and economic trade bloc of those countries I don't really know. Do you think many Saudis or Omanis or Bahrainians feel love for the Gulf Cooperation Council? I doubt it.
I think most British people might like or even love Europe in so far as they like or love the countries, people, traditions, culture, scenery, diversity etc.
Why anyone would feel love for a political union and economic trade bloc of those countries I don't really know. Do you think many Saudis or Omanis or Bahrainians feel love for the Gulf Cooperation Council? I doubt it.
Disastrous said:
It certainly is but to put the concept into simple terms that you should be able to follow:
Unification is preferable to division, especially in the world we currently live in.
That's something of a philosophy and I suspect lies at the core of the argument. You either agree with that or you don't and I would hazard a guess that a lot of the economics are sideshows to this in the sense that you either see unification as being economically good or bad as a result of your views on the above.
That about covers it for me.
Just good in a general sense? Would world government be even better?Unification is preferable to division, especially in the world we currently live in.
That's something of a philosophy and I suspect lies at the core of the argument. You either agree with that or you don't and I would hazard a guess that a lot of the economics are sideshows to this in the sense that you either see unification as being economically good or bad as a result of your views on the above.
That about covers it for me.
Drinking again? Already?
There's been umpteen threads where people have voiced support of EU membership, The European "project" and even a federal Europe, me being one of them, it's not a popular view point on PH though which is probably why, like this s
tty thread will, they fade and die, after first being used as an excuse to call strangers on the internet names because they don't agree with your world view.
I mean seriously geezer, just get over it and get another hobby.
There's been umpteen threads where people have voiced support of EU membership, The European "project" and even a federal Europe, me being one of them, it's not a popular view point on PH though which is probably why, like this s
tty thread will, they fade and die, after first being used as an excuse to call strangers on the internet names because they don't agree with your world view. I mean seriously geezer, just get over it and get another hobby.
SKP555 said:
Disastrous said:
It certainly is but to put the concept into simple terms that you should be able to follow:
Unification is preferable to division, especially in the world we currently live in.
That's something of a philosophy and I suspect lies at the core of the argument. You either agree with that or you don't and I would hazard a guess that a lot of the economics are sideshows to this in the sense that you either see unification as being economically good or bad as a result of your views on the above.
That about covers it for me.
Just good in a general sense? Would world government be even better?Unification is preferable to division, especially in the world we currently live in.
That's something of a philosophy and I suspect lies at the core of the argument. You either agree with that or you don't and I would hazard a guess that a lot of the economics are sideshows to this in the sense that you either see unification as being economically good or bad as a result of your views on the above.
That about covers it for me.
Not trolling and not drinking.
There's loads of stuff about how stupid leave voters are and how poor we'll all be, and only very limited stuff about anything people like about the EU.
I can appreciate the desire for world government and also the acknowledgement that it isn't currently feasible. To me EU government remains unfeasible for the same reasons.
There's loads of stuff about how stupid leave voters are and how poor we'll all be, and only very limited stuff about anything people like about the EU.
I can appreciate the desire for world government and also the acknowledgement that it isn't currently feasible. To me EU government remains unfeasible for the same reasons.
SKP555 - you have started what is essentially the same thread about 10 times now. Slight deviations on the same ultimate question.
If you want an answer - ok some of the tedious law making was...tedious. I guess its what happens when law is made by lawyers.
But I liked the idea that we were a big community. I liked the idea that we were open and inclusive.
I like the idea I could pop over and see the French - or go and commentate at a 2 day motorsport event in the Czech Republic without needing a permit or visa or whatever.
I found it neighbourly, brotherly, even.
To me, Brexit feels like we're drawing up the draw bridge and staring over the ramparts uneasily at 'them' - suspicious of what they may do to 'us'.
And I don't like that.
I know many, many people differ, and I won't be changing their minds and what is done is done.
But that's just what I think.
If you want an answer - ok some of the tedious law making was...tedious. I guess its what happens when law is made by lawyers.
But I liked the idea that we were a big community. I liked the idea that we were open and inclusive.
I like the idea I could pop over and see the French - or go and commentate at a 2 day motorsport event in the Czech Republic without needing a permit or visa or whatever.
I found it neighbourly, brotherly, even.
To me, Brexit feels like we're drawing up the draw bridge and staring over the ramparts uneasily at 'them' - suspicious of what they may do to 'us'.
And I don't like that.
I know many, many people differ, and I won't be changing their minds and what is done is done.
But that's just what I think.
Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 22 March 14:51
Vocal Minority said:
I like the idea I could pop over and see the French - or go and commentate at a 2 day motorsport event in the Czech Republic without needing a permit or visa or whatever.
Like a passport? When have you not been able to pop over and see the French in the same way as you can now? ISTR going there in the 80s without difficulty.CrutyRammers said:
Vocal Minority said:
I like the idea I could pop over and see the French - or go and commentate at a 2 day motorsport event in the Czech Republic without needing a permit or visa or whatever.
Like a passport? When have you not been able to pop over and see the French in the same way as you can now? ISTR going there in the 80s without difficulty.And I know its wishy washy and over liberal round here to like the principal of it - I just do.
I'm not expecting anyone to agree
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff