DVLA do not answer questions
Discussion
Bennet said:
If there's no proof of ownership presumably two people can simply decide a car belongs to either one of them at any given moment (given free of charge, so no receipt) as happens to suit the situation.
Except that one of them - the one listed as registered keeper on the V5C - is the one who is legally responsible for it, whoever happens to actually OWN it.And that's the thing that's important for TPTB to track, not who might or might not actually own it.
The question from the perspective of someone not living in the UK is very interesting.
This highlights the big differences in the common sense between British law and the one in other European countries: in no other European country I have lived the ownership of a vehicle is considered on the same level of any other good -which might seem obvious from your point of view-.
In France and Switzerland the equivalent of the V5 (Carte Grise -Grey card) is also the only document which any authority will consider proof of ownership, in Italy you even have 2 separate documents, one you have to keep in the car at any time when driving and another one you can keep at home which you could consider as a sort of land register, but for vehicles.
So reading that an invoice/bank transfer/sales contract can be considered as proof of ownership of a car restores some faith in the future of mankind
This highlights the big differences in the common sense between British law and the one in other European countries: in no other European country I have lived the ownership of a vehicle is considered on the same level of any other good -which might seem obvious from your point of view-.
In France and Switzerland the equivalent of the V5 (Carte Grise -Grey card) is also the only document which any authority will consider proof of ownership, in Italy you even have 2 separate documents, one you have to keep in the car at any time when driving and another one you can keep at home which you could consider as a sort of land register, but for vehicles.
So reading that an invoice/bank transfer/sales contract can be considered as proof of ownership of a car restores some faith in the future of mankind
AlexIT said:
The question from the perspective of someone not living in the UK is very interesting.
This highlights the big differences in the common sense between British law and the one in other European countries: in no other European country I have lived the ownership of a vehicle is considered on the same level of any other good -which might seem obvious from your point of view-.
In France and Switzerland the equivalent of the V5 (Carte Grise -Grey card) is also the only document which any authority will consider proof of ownership, in Italy you even have 2 separate documents, one you have to keep in the car at any time when driving and another one you can keep at home which you could consider as a sort of land register, but for vehicles.
So reading that an invoice/bank transfer/sales contract can be considered as proof of ownership of a car restores some faith in the future of mankind
And, in order to buy or sell a car, you have to get that ownership document officially notarised...This highlights the big differences in the common sense between British law and the one in other European countries: in no other European country I have lived the ownership of a vehicle is considered on the same level of any other good -which might seem obvious from your point of view-.
In France and Switzerland the equivalent of the V5 (Carte Grise -Grey card) is also the only document which any authority will consider proof of ownership, in Italy you even have 2 separate documents, one you have to keep in the car at any time when driving and another one you can keep at home which you could consider as a sort of land register, but for vehicles.
So reading that an invoice/bank transfer/sales contract can be considered as proof of ownership of a car restores some faith in the future of mankind
TooMany2cvs said:
And, in order to buy or sell a car, you have to get that ownership document officially notarised...
In Italy it was so until not long ago, now things are easier (read it easy as having to do with Italian bureaucracy), in France you need to go through the Prefecture, so basically yes, lots of hassle and sometimes more expensive than a car itself 
An interesting thread, i wondered when watching one of those bailiff progs the other day. Basically guy said it was partners car, bailiff replied "prove it" ? Now if that car was bought privately (as many are still bought) what 'proof' can you provide? V5 obviously not being proof ...
AlexIT said:
The question from the perspective of someone not living in the UK is very interesting.
But unlike other European countries (except Ireland, Malta and Cyprus) UK's unique in that it drives on the left. And is surrounded by water making stealing cars and moving them across the border less of an issue. Whereas a car nicked from Belgium in the morning can end up somewhere east of Berlin in the afternoon.VGTICE said:
AlexIT said:
The question from the perspective of someone not living in the UK is very interesting.
But unlike other European countries (except Ireland, Malta and Cyprus) UK's unique in that it drives on the left. And is surrounded by water making stealing cars and moving them across the border less of an issue. Whereas a car nicked from Belgium in the morning can end up somewhere east of Berlin in the afternoon.Should I buy my Clio RS in France now, I should pay about 500 € tax to have the Document in my name (but then there's no other tax)
In Italy the same would cost 700 € + 450 € Tax each year.
bigee said:
An interesting thread, i wondered when watching one of those bailiff progs the other day. Basically guy said it was partners car, bailiff replied "prove it" ? Now if that car was bought privately (as many are still bought) what 'proof' can you provide? V5 obviously not being proof ...
How long does it take to write a receipt?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=588...
So to flip the question over, what's the advantage of being able to separate a registered keeper from an owner?
To take some examples:
I buy a car. I have a receipt. I am the owner. I register it with DVLA. DVLA have me as the registered keeper. So owner AND registered keeper.
I buy a car for my partner. I have a receipt. I give the car to my partner. Obviously we do not do a receipt, we have better things to do. She registers it with the DVLA. In my eyes, she is the owner and registered keeper. But, I could argue that I am the owner, while she is the registered keeper and therefore legally liable for the vehicle.
So on that basis, it seems advantageous purely to shed the legal responsibility whilst retaining an asset of value. However, in this instance, the grey area is did I, without receipt, transfer ownership by "giving" her the car. A bit like giving someone a scratchcard for their birthday, and them winning £250k. I paid for it, but I gave it to them. I would consider it their money, kick myself hard at my bad luck for not giving them the other one, the one I clearly bought for myself at the same time, and hope I get a pint out of it.
To take some examples:
I buy a car. I have a receipt. I am the owner. I register it with DVLA. DVLA have me as the registered keeper. So owner AND registered keeper.
I buy a car for my partner. I have a receipt. I give the car to my partner. Obviously we do not do a receipt, we have better things to do. She registers it with the DVLA. In my eyes, she is the owner and registered keeper. But, I could argue that I am the owner, while she is the registered keeper and therefore legally liable for the vehicle.
So on that basis, it seems advantageous purely to shed the legal responsibility whilst retaining an asset of value. However, in this instance, the grey area is did I, without receipt, transfer ownership by "giving" her the car. A bit like giving someone a scratchcard for their birthday, and them winning £250k. I paid for it, but I gave it to them. I would consider it their money, kick myself hard at my bad luck for not giving them the other one, the one I clearly bought for myself at the same time, and hope I get a pint out of it.
It's a bit swings and roundabouts for me. In the US, the vehicle's Title is the equivalent document and it is proof of ownership.
It does cause some administrative issues, though - finance agreements have to be noted on the title document as an example. In the US, they don't charge to transfer the title, IIRC.
With the V5, it's all very well to say that your proof of ownership is your receipt, but saying a car is like a phone or a pair if shoes is a little bit of a stretch. When I bought my first car, I bought privately and got a hand-written receipt from the seller - we both signed two copies. I guess that this would be ok from a legal standpoint, but it would be pretty easy to fake one. I didn't ask for proof of ownership at the time - she might even have shown it to me, I can't remember - it was a simpler time and the car was only £300!
My Dad gave me my second car and, given that I had the same name, lived at the same address and he got the money when we sold it, I'm not sure I was ever the owner nor the registered keeper.
The problem with the V5 is when you're buying used, especially privately. In these circumstances, it is reassuring to see that the V5 has the name and address of the seller on it, but it doesn't really prove anything.
It does cause some administrative issues, though - finance agreements have to be noted on the title document as an example. In the US, they don't charge to transfer the title, IIRC.
With the V5, it's all very well to say that your proof of ownership is your receipt, but saying a car is like a phone or a pair if shoes is a little bit of a stretch. When I bought my first car, I bought privately and got a hand-written receipt from the seller - we both signed two copies. I guess that this would be ok from a legal standpoint, but it would be pretty easy to fake one. I didn't ask for proof of ownership at the time - she might even have shown it to me, I can't remember - it was a simpler time and the car was only £300!
My Dad gave me my second car and, given that I had the same name, lived at the same address and he got the money when we sold it, I'm not sure I was ever the owner nor the registered keeper.
The problem with the V5 is when you're buying used, especially privately. In these circumstances, it is reassuring to see that the V5 has the name and address of the seller on it, but it doesn't really prove anything.
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