RE: 50 limits by the back door: PH Blog
Discussion
Mandown46 said:
a few seconds. The biggest delay is actually going through the system to set up the signs or clear them, its painfully slow sometimes.
Painfully slow being?Forgive me as I don't know how your system works however do you mean selecting the road, the section then the sign and finally what it's changed to?
Mandown46 said:
Engineer792 said:
I've seen it many times.
May I suggest that instead of just displaying "Debris in road" with a big 50 up, which does little more than causing the traffic to bunch up and reduce your chances of actually seeing the debris, that they actually put up useful information such as, "Debris in L2"
If its something large, that won't be blown around by wind, like a sofa, or a other large item, you will often get a lane closure set. The risk with the above, as pointed out is if I tell you debris is in lane 2, then someone clips it and sends it into lane 4, i can't change the signals quickly enough, thus increasing the danger.May I suggest that instead of just displaying "Debris in road" with a big 50 up, which does little more than causing the traffic to bunch up and reduce your chances of actually seeing the debris, that they actually put up useful information such as, "Debris in L2"
However, generally speaking, when there's something unspecified going on in the road ahead you want to have as much visibility of it as possible, and it doesn't help to have no more than little chunks of the road visible due to the already-too-small gaps drivers leave between themselves, especially when you have no idea of where to look, whether you're in the right lane or anything.
The thing is, just putting up a big '50' not only exacerbates the visibility issue by increasing the tendency to bunch up, it leads a lot of drivers to believe that all they need to do is slow down to 50 and all will be well.
I will concede that it's probably not a good idea a lot of the time to say something like 'L2', however giving more pertinent information where possible and appropriate might help.
Edited by Engineer792 on Saturday 1st April 15:51
The problem is this. The general public can see just as good data on traffic jams as the "system". I get real time data on traffic on my phone - it's called Waze, and it seems to be close to 100% accurate. When Waze says there is a snarl up ahead, it's generally spot on, and what's more, it's estimates of how long the jam will take to negotiate is very accurate as well.
So - this data exposes the lie of "we're controlling a jam that you can't see" for what it is - a complete whopper. When I experience my random M25 limits late at night, there isn't a motorway jam for 100 miles.
Conversely, when Waze alerts me to a jam 20 miles ahead, do the 40s come on to steady the traffic? Of course not, they come on about 4 miles ahead of the jam, which doesn't help in the slightest. I notice this at lot, because my reaction to a distant jam is to slow down to lorry speeds, there is no point in blasting along at 80 only to wait for ages in traffic.
I don't really care whether the billions that have been spent on this stuff isn't working because the technology is cack, or because the operators are absent. It's just amazing that a free app can do better.
So - this data exposes the lie of "we're controlling a jam that you can't see" for what it is - a complete whopper. When I experience my random M25 limits late at night, there isn't a motorway jam for 100 miles.
Conversely, when Waze alerts me to a jam 20 miles ahead, do the 40s come on to steady the traffic? Of course not, they come on about 4 miles ahead of the jam, which doesn't help in the slightest. I notice this at lot, because my reaction to a distant jam is to slow down to lorry speeds, there is no point in blasting along at 80 only to wait for ages in traffic.
I don't really care whether the billions that have been spent on this stuff isn't working because the technology is cack, or because the operators are absent. It's just amazing that a free app can do better.
Mandown46 said:
Engineer792 said:
It's seems like very poor planning that they spent such a humungous sum on the smart motorway system, but didn't think to install a few more cameras in order to plug such an obvious flaw in the system.
ETA: Besides which, in the case of a 'wrong way vehicle' I would expect a far more rigorous response than to just display a warning.
It would be nice to have more cameras. ETA: Besides which, in the case of a 'wrong way vehicle' I would expect a far more rigorous response than to just display a warning.
Edited by Engineer792 on Saturday 1st April 12:11
Really, theres not much more we can do. speeds will be reduced to as low as possible, 20mph is expected, and warning signals throughout the area.
And with such police involvement, it then wouldn't be down to you to guess when the danger had passed.
More cameras would still be useful for lesser incidents.
I find it interesting that one excuse for not updating the signs more quickly is that it needs the issue to be cleared by police, and due to the reduction in numbers of police traffic units, partly in connection with the introduction of Highways Agency Traffic Officers to do some of the duties previously undertaken by police units, it takes longer for any of the fewer and more widely spread remaining police traffic units to arrive and do the necessary.
If I have misunderstood what has been said, or the context, then apologies, but if that is correct, then just what the jolly old fark are the powers that be using to keep their ears apart. You just couldn't make it up.
If I have misunderstood what has been said, or the context, then apologies, but if that is correct, then just what the jolly old fark are the powers that be using to keep their ears apart. You just couldn't make it up.
nish81 said:
I for one appreciate the arguments that people who seem to work for highways england have put forth in this thread and do feel a bit less resentment towards smart motorways as a result of your posts, thanks for the explanations guys/girls
If it was a bucket for holding water, it would be full of strawTake the M5 north towards Brumingham. You get 3 normal lanes of light live traffic and the hard shoulder is coned off with a purple pipe lying on the verge. There are no road works going on and no roadworkers. Yet there's a 50mph limit and so everyones shuffling nose to tail in lanes 1 and 2 going at 51.7 mph or 51.6mph. The outside lane 3 is near enough empty. If anyone did suffer a problem they could easily pull in between the cones.
Further on where theyve 'finished' the job there are now 4 live lanes with no hard shoulder and overhead gantries with 50 50 50 50
There is nothing wrong, nothing happening. Except no-ones in the old hard shoulder lets call it lane 0 in case some poor so and so happens to break down. Everyones shuffling nose to tail in lanes 1 and 2 going at 51.7 mph or 51.6mph. The outside lane 3 is near enough empty.
Then the last gantry and its NSL
Everyone's off using lanes 1 2 and 3 If theres nothing happening in either of those two sections wouldnt it be better to have it as NSL? Then use the 50 when theres something going on
FiF said:
This question of design speed for motorways. My understanding was that the design speed is essentially one that is comfortable to travel and is related to alignments, road widths, etc. The connection between design speed and safe speed, which brings in the issues of accident statistics, is really rather tenuous, and IMHO to turn round and say design speed is x, and to shift a speed limit a few mph above that would need wholesale revision of the most minor details is frankly a bit silly. M62 east has a design speed of 90 for example.
Interesting you say that, because westbound on the M62, from where it starts just west of Hull until a few miles before the M18 I sat at 50mph due to an 'incident'. Of course, everyone else did 70mph+, but due to being a young driver terrified of destroying any hope of reasonable insurance, I opted to avoid any possibility of a speeding fine. And during this 9 mile stretch, the closest thing to an incident I saw? A bloke in an A6 stopped on the hard shoulder.. to relieve himself. Then today, the M1 southbound past Sheffield was 50mph due to 'a slow vehicle exiting refuge' or some such. But that's OK, because I was exiting onto the M18... which suddenly changed to 50mph due for yet another phantom 'incident'.9 times out of 10 I see a variable speed limit enforced it's for no discernible reason. If the roads need checking before the limit can be replaced, surely we either need to give HwA vehicles the authority to do so, or put a few bloody cameras in.
rxe said:
I don't really care whether the billions that have been spent on this stuff isn't working because the technology is cack, or because the operators are absent. It's just amazing that a free app can do better.
This."Information is power", as they say, and information such as provided by Waze an Inrix puts the lie very effectively to the HA's usual protestations.
Whether the HA are under-manned, incompetent, or have a more controlling agenda I'll leave to individuals to decide, but as has been said before 'Smart motorways' is one of the biggest Oxymorons in our road traffic network right now...
Mandown - I note you didn't respond to my specific example of several MILES of 'debris in road - SLOW' signs 2 weekends ago...
Mandown46 said:
Despite popular opion, Smart motorways do increase traffic flow,
Methinks that should be Smart Motorways can increase traffic flowand you can see an example at busy times at the M6 M6 junction
At other times and in other places theyre patently not being used smartly and if those instances outweigh the places theyre working its giving the whole thing a bad name. Stupid motorways or motorways that smart
Engineer792 said:
At the risk of stating the obvious, a large proportion of car traffic already does regularly travel at speeds of 80-90mph, and has done so for decades, with little or no evidence of 'crossover carnage'
The tests may only be approved for cars up to 70mph, but the fact is that if the barriers can physically withstand heavy vehicle impacts then they can certainly withstand car impacts at much higher speeds than 70mph.
The point is, simply changing the test criteria would likely 'future proof the system' in the vast majority of cases without having to dig the whole thing up
A barrier's strength is directly related to the pullout force of the foundation it's installed in. In the case of bridge parapets (bridges being my field of work) the pullout strength of a parapet base plate is limited by the deck edge beam. In the 1970's when the motorway bridges were designed, they were built based on a taking a parapet system with a 70mph limit. When the parapet is stiffened (post centres reduced in most cases), the force is transmitted into the edge beam because the barrier isn't absorbing the impact and pulling the vehicle in, avoiding it ricocheting back into traffic.The tests may only be approved for cars up to 70mph, but the fact is that if the barriers can physically withstand heavy vehicle impacts then they can certainly withstand car impacts at much higher speeds than 70mph.
The point is, simply changing the test criteria would likely 'future proof the system' in the vast majority of cases without having to dig the whole thing up
Edited by Engineer792 on Saturday 1st April 11:55
You'd find that a high containment barrier installed on a 70's era edge beam would fail under impact because it would shear clean off the deck. To strengthen bridge decks up and down the land isn't an option, not just because of cost but because of the room it takes up and disruption to road users. You'd end up needing to avoid trafficking the deck on one carriageway during the works as it's likely the cantilever section of the deck (the section between the outer steel edge girder / box girder and the parapet edge beam) would need to be replaced. That typically wipes out the hard shoulder and lane 1 from use, so once your works zone and safety zone are in place you're reduced to potentially single lane running as lane 2 would be on the narrow side and has to be used as a HGV lane during works.
fuelracer496 said:
To strengthen bridge decks up and down the land isn't an option, not just because of cost but because of the room it takes up and disruption to road users.
It's already happeningAlthough about half the 50 mph limits are where theyre installing so called smart motorways, the other half is where theyre strengthening bridge supports and decks, and yes it does involve this
fuelracer496 said:
You'd end up needing to avoid trafficking the deck on one carriageway during the works as it's likely the cantilever section of the deck (the section between the outer steel edge girder / box girder and the parapet edge beam) would need to be replaced. That typically wipes out the hard shoulder and lane 1 from use, so once your works zone and safety zone are in place you're reduced to potentially single lane running as lane 2 would be on the narrow side and has to be used as a HGV lane during works.
However in other places they cone off a lane, or hard shoulder, let traffic do what it wants, it slows up a bit and is careful going through the section and you dont have the carnage predicted by the 50mph limit and camera folks. Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 1st April 19:53
The Moose said:
From where I sit, the solutions are just a sticky plaster over a gunshot wound.
You say very definitely that you're not doing several things that really should be done.
Infrastructure is vital and if that infrastructure, or assets as you refer to them, aren't improved, updated upon and increased then the country will continue to decline.
To address the questions about why the 50 limits are in place even when motorways aren't being worked on at evenings and weekends well my question is why can't those roads be worked on over weekends and evenings. There are plenty of countries around the world where roadworks of major routes (and some less major) are done 24/7 until complete.
I don't disagree with you, those who work in the industry share the same feelings - we produce portfolios that are handed to the client for future years work to agree funding. The funding at source is from central government - if that doesn't filter down to the level where the managing agent can crack on and get stuff done, there's little that can be done. The proposed works are based on routine maintenance, where items are updated due to time (wear & tear, expired elements etc), or premature failure / defects that we try to resolve before they become more severe and increase the time and cost.You say very definitely that you're not doing several things that really should be done.
Infrastructure is vital and if that infrastructure, or assets as you refer to them, aren't improved, updated upon and increased then the country will continue to decline.
To address the questions about why the 50 limits are in place even when motorways aren't being worked on at evenings and weekends well my question is why can't those roads be worked on over weekends and evenings. There are plenty of countries around the world where roadworks of major routes (and some less major) are done 24/7 until complete.
Regarding 24/7 working, we do when we can but certainly in the case of bridge works, there's sequencing and phasing issues that sometimes prohibit what can be done - as an example, concrete works require a minimum 5 days of curing before shutters can be removed. During that time, there's little that can be progressed elsewhere as the next action would be waterproofing but until the shutters are gone and cube tests have come back as sufficient, this cannot be undertakem. While additives can help speed up the curing time, you often find that the end concrete strength is too strong and no longer works well with the existing concrete grade - the key thing here being that repairs need to be a like for like in terms of compressive strength.
We've trialed putting up signage for road users saying "concrete setting" for this very reason as the travelling public might see no work force present at that moment in time.
Saaby93,
I'm sure you have a better solution for all this; I was merely trying to explain how things are carried out in the area I work in. Smart motorways and road works are separate things, we've had articles and threads for both of them in the last 18 months or so - and having tried to explain the whys and wherefores, it's proved a fruitless exercise to clue people in as to what it's all about, as we just get told we're doing it wrong.
Having only worked in the South West when it comes to thaumasite repairs to bridge piers and foundations, I cant comment on the approach taken by other managing agents in other areas of the UK. No doubt there's better ways of doing things which comply with the regulations and standards that have to be adhered to, even if those suggesting things have never even heard of said regulations.
I'll bow out at this point
I'm sure you have a better solution for all this; I was merely trying to explain how things are carried out in the area I work in. Smart motorways and road works are separate things, we've had articles and threads for both of them in the last 18 months or so - and having tried to explain the whys and wherefores, it's proved a fruitless exercise to clue people in as to what it's all about, as we just get told we're doing it wrong.
Having only worked in the South West when it comes to thaumasite repairs to bridge piers and foundations, I cant comment on the approach taken by other managing agents in other areas of the UK. No doubt there's better ways of doing things which comply with the regulations and standards that have to be adhered to, even if those suggesting things have never even heard of said regulations.
I'll bow out at this point
Mandown46 said:
Forgive me, I'd missed it in the mass of other replies!
Having not seen that myself, the only explaination is that an individual has set those instead of something else, or made an error. The policy is that debris signs are set when something specific has been seen.
By and large the more generic 'Incident Slow' would be set as a general warning that something has been reported in the area.
In the future, I think I mention that I'm hopeful we can have access to a wider range of signs, such as 'Reports Of Debris' which will ideally provide clearer information to people.
I'm aware of a push to reduce the number of time we set generic incident slow signals with a 50mph restriction, I'm firmly behind that, as are a large number of my colleauges. Remember, we use the same motorways as everyone else so deal with the same frustrations as everyone else.
In an ideal world, we could have more, wider motorways with faster speeds and less traffic using them, backed up with cutting edge traffic management technology and plenty of police patrols to enforce the laws.
In reality, we cant build more motorways for whatever reasons, widening seems to be a thing of the past, so the money gets spend on improving what we have. Despite popular opion, Smart motorways do increase traffic flow, you might, as an indivdual get to go everywhere at 70mph, but journeys through them are consistently faster and safer.
As an individual, I do see a lot of room for improvement, and I share a lot of frustrations, especially with the phantom signs at night, but I work with very few incompetant people, just ones poorly paid and overworked, much as you will find in any goverment department.
Thanks.Having not seen that myself, the only explaination is that an individual has set those instead of something else, or made an error. The policy is that debris signs are set when something specific has been seen.
By and large the more generic 'Incident Slow' would be set as a general warning that something has been reported in the area.
In the future, I think I mention that I'm hopeful we can have access to a wider range of signs, such as 'Reports Of Debris' which will ideally provide clearer information to people.
I'm aware of a push to reduce the number of time we set generic incident slow signals with a 50mph restriction, I'm firmly behind that, as are a large number of my colleauges. Remember, we use the same motorways as everyone else so deal with the same frustrations as everyone else.
In an ideal world, we could have more, wider motorways with faster speeds and less traffic using them, backed up with cutting edge traffic management technology and plenty of police patrols to enforce the laws.
In reality, we cant build more motorways for whatever reasons, widening seems to be a thing of the past, so the money gets spend on improving what we have. Despite popular opion, Smart motorways do increase traffic flow, you might, as an indivdual get to go everywhere at 70mph, but journeys through them are consistently faster and safer.
As an individual, I do see a lot of room for improvement, and I share a lot of frustrations, especially with the phantom signs at night, but I work with very few incompetant people, just ones poorly paid and overworked, much as you will find in any goverment department.
I agree with some of your points, but others I cannot:-
- there are too many, too frequent incidents of 'phantom' warning signs on normal motorways for it JUST to be under-manning.
- the random up/down of smart motorway limits is both distracting (and hence potentially dangerous) and creates the perception of malice in the operation. Particularly when there appears to be no need for the yo-yo'ing.
- we're spending >£60bn on a vanity travel project (HS2) which will provide very limited benefits to a very specific group of people (the rich and the commercial traveller who need the time/money trade-off). Pretty much EVERYONE I've mentioned that project to sees it as pork-barrel politics or a large bung/bribe - the benefits of £60bn in the trunk-road network are incalculably greater.
...all of which is leading to massive dissatisfaction by drivers, which leads to more stress/anger, worse driving, and potentially more accidents. Not to mention the impact on trust in government...
It's full! rxe said:
When I experience my random M25 limits late at night, there isn't a motorway jam for 100 miles
Same thing tonight. Chain snapped on bike so came home in the recovery truck. 3.30am approaching M4 junction on M25 - 40mph, queue ahead. Don't remember seeing any other reduced limits leading into it. That for a couple of gantries, including a new hadecs one, then NSL. The next vehicle was some distance away - round by the M40 junction - and definitely no queue.Smart motorways simply don't seem to work when its quiet!
Edited by SBDJ on Sunday 2nd April 05:04
M1 J23a to 25 is starting on Monday I think. 18 months of misery then. Provided they don't overrun like they did further up. Cost a lot of hauliers a lot of money that did.
To add to the pain, they're also putting a new junction in on the A453 section that runs parallel to the M1 and somehow are going to try connect the A50 east directly with M1 south.
I know which way I'm not going to work from now on .
To add to the pain, they're also putting a new junction in on the A453 section that runs parallel to the M1 and somehow are going to try connect the A50 east directly with M1 south.
I know which way I'm not going to work from now on .
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